Zelda

Discussion in 'Active Themes' started by Shiny Rayquaza, Sep 13, 2012.

  1. Fiery Espeon

    Fiery Espeon The fire never bothered me anyway ~

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    It doesn't help the fact that Mafia have a hard time locating Impa/Nayru ssmerimes so maybe we can add that Kotake can hax BG. The rate will probably about 5% or ever 2.5% but it is a possibility. For Malladus, you can do something like cannot be killed by Link and has a voteshield. So, someone who is Malladus can just kill all Mafia. This will probably hurt village but, Village does have Din.
     
  2. Veteran Padgett

    Veteran Padgett TFT Main Developer Developer

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    I think Midna should see herself as villager. As the role is, knowing that you are the miller defeats the purpose of being a miller. Midna is basically a named citizen who can pm Link to be clean.
     
  3. Beast

    Beast I do what I want

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    Actually, it gives scum the possibility to pm link and be "cleaned" as well. That is probably rare but it can still happen.
     
  4. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    Although that is possible, it's far too risky since a simple counter claim would easily burst scum's disguise, and the most damage it would deal was Link killing a miller before it got the fake-claimer.
    Midna seeing herself as Citizen is something I was thinking about but never remember to suggest. It's probably better for scum since it actually does the miller's job of confusing village without extra risks.
     
  5. Veteran Padgett

    Veteran Padgett TFT Main Developer Developer

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    The only person who can pull off a Midna claim is Malladus, but there is no reason for a solo role to risk that. If anyone else fake claimed Midna, Zelda could just inspect them the next night or Tingle could distract one of them.
     
  6. The Hades

    The Hades My Wall

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    Malladus can't be pled or most of the other mafia
    Only vaati minion and kotake can
     
  7. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    I was going to suggest this, but I was thinking that maybe Skull Kid should have a pierce kill. This would put the village power in check and balance out the game more, plus it checks Ganon's night kill evade nicely.
     
  8. NotMafia

    NotMafia Miltank: Destroyer of Souls

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    The Midna/Malladus thing seems ultra situational, ie a Zelda/Midna/Malladus endgame. The voteshield for Malladus is a good idea i think.

    If Skull Kid has a pierce kill it should be one shot, otherwise Koume and SK will stifle Link so much. Unless Midna becomes a self exposer with 0 vote or something, for village to connect.

    Stream of conciousness post and I'm not good at all at making/balancing themes so my ideas may be garbage
     
  9. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    I’ve always been a fan of millers who don’t know they’re millers. Honestly Midna can claim at any time – who’s going to counter that claim? Malladus? Considering he’s a lone role it’d be suicide for him to counterclaim that, and at worse you’d get a villager out.

    Scum PMing as Midna isn’t really that rewarding. “Oh hey I have two Midna claims, let me just kill one and if I was wrong then all we lost was a villager.” It’s too risky of a claim to get such a low-importance role out, you’re better off claiming citizen.

    Malladus CAN be PL’d. Tingle just dies when he does it, but this means Tingle can find Malladus and they can afford to vote at 5 if it’s a situation like Citizen/Tingle/Malladus/PR/PR. Have everyone mass claim, vote off the citizen claimer, and PL the other.

    Skull Kid’s pierce is probably unnecessary – the popularity of Zelda (at least I feel) hinges on the relative safety of the Link claim, and having him able to beat Ganon 1v1 eliminates the whole concept of “only Link (and the vote) can defeat Ganondorf.” One pierce shot could be nice but I would prefer it to pierce through bodyguards (as in, can’t beat Ganon still).

    I think the problem with Malladus is more of his tendency to get crossfired – he is actually quite dangerous in late game because he has two kills, except he tends to get killed by the other mafia because of his low priority. Moving one of his kills’ priority up might actually help.

    Also let me reiterate this – can we please move Kotake’s distract above Tingle’s. Tingle can PL stall if he knows Kotake even though Ganon ignores distracts, but if Kotake can find Tingle the Gerudo can kill without interference.
     
  10. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    Since I've been making the most recent hotfixes for Zelda (team talk, team-reveal-with-roles, other stuff like that), I could change Midna into not knowing they are Miller and Kotake's priority if there are no strong objections.

    The rest of the suggestions would need more discussion, just let's remember last time Pierce Kill was added to Zelda it was a disaster.
     
  11. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    So then bump up the priority so that it can bypass protect. Don't see the issue there.
     
  12. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    Regardless of it being made with priority or actual pierce property, the result would be the same. It changes too much how the theme is played, which, based on previous experience, would most likely hurt the theme. It's not something worth doing for a theme that is always among the top5 themes.
     
  13. NotMafia

    NotMafia Miltank: Destroyer of Souls

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    The tingle kotake thing makes all the sense in the world. Malladus needs some sort of buff, maybe a limited self protect?
     
  14. The Hades

    The Hades My Wall

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    Malladus needs vote shield or plus votes
    I don't see anything else logical happening
     
  15. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE THE PLEASURE OF BEING CUMMED INSIDE

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    nerf ganon
     
  16. Marquis

    Marquis beez in the whazzit??

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    for the record, experimental 3 and 4 player setups were created.

    Theme: Zelda
    Author: Tyrex
    Enabled: Yes
    Number of Players: 3 to 43 players
    Summary: The battle between the Triforce continues throughout the Kingdom of Hyrule! Link is the only one who can take down Ganondorf, but he must be careful when the treacherous Koume is around or he'll get struck during the day! Zelda should be wary of Skull Kid, who lurks among the citizens of Hyrule, and the evil Kotake when her magic freezes! Vaati and his army of minions is trying to take over the Kingdom during this time of crisis. While all hell is loose, the Demon King Malladus appears and destroy anyone who opposes him!
    (For more information about this theme, type /roles Zelda, /sides Zelda, /priority Zelda and /changelog Zelda)
    Code: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=pZeUFV5T
     
  17. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    Introducing a Gerudo daykiller partway through the spawn list changes the game drastically. Link can no longer safely claim once Koume's in the picture. Even if Koume's revealed for doing so, the loss/gain ratio is heavily in Gerudo's favor, since Ganon is basically indestructible and can only get voted off thenafter. Either making Link immune to this kill or giving Koume a different special ability would be more balanced. Koume could instead have a day "expose" which informs her who the targeted role is, like Tropius in Flock. This would help her team find other PRs like Impa, Naryu, and Zelda and eliminate them during the night.

    Since this theme also suffers from citizen spam, why not add the other sages from Ocarina of Time? They don't have to be incredibly powerful, but they could at least spice it up late game. Saria can be a PR connector by getting hax on Inspect and/or Protect and/or Navi (see below). Darunia can be a bomb, revenging Nightkills from everyone but Ganon. Ruto can be another BG or Inspector or PL or something. Nabooru can be a /Stalker. Rauru can be 50% immune to nightkills and have a vote of 2. The other two sages are already in the game, obviously. Simple extra roles like these could help generally make people in larger games less bored without changing the scope of the game entirely.

    I'd also suggest giving Navi a more useful role in larger games where the PRs don't successfully connect, or where the are Navi fake-claimers (way too easy for Wind Mage to do this). Having Navi be able to day-expose (non-revealing) would make Link+Navi an amazing tag-team, and help them connect consistently. Think of it as Z-Targetting.

    Since all the above recommendations buff the village, I'd like to see some diversity among villains. There are plenty of viable boss roles to make an entire new side out of them if you want. There's a noticeable lack of Poison in this theme. Why not add Gohma as a Poisoner, either with Skull Kid or on her own side? In this case, make Saria and Naryu be /Safeguarders (in addition to Protect for Naryu). If Gohma forms a new side, King Dodongo and Barinade can join that side. Skull Kid's side should be expanded with Stalfos and Wolfos in larger games. If Gerudo needs extra teammates in larger games, Iron Knuckle would be a good addition. Vaati's minion should be fewer in number, but each possess an individual kill. Having 6 Vaati's Minions who do the same thing and all get Tingle'd to hell and back is ridiculous, and it makes busing a teammate to gain PR's trust is highly rewarding without much loss.

    These changes would raise the kill level in 40+ games to like 7 or 8 people per night, depending on who's targeted and/or Protected. On the flipside, the villi would gain several tools to pin down enemies. After Night 1, the village would be able to adapt and reform their strategy with the surviving members, leading to varying and more diverse games.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2014
  18. Elite's Aaron

    Elite's Aaron Sinnoh's Elite

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    I want you guys to debate a 3 man zelda,, consisting of ganondorf, where he cant kill n1, zelda, and link.

    Also a 4 man Zelda consisting of Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, Navi.
     
  19. NotMafia

    NotMafia Miltank: Destroyer of Souls

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    I prefer the moon set ups because they're unique. And also both of those just come down to 1v1 CCing.
     
  20. Elite's Aaron

    Elite's Aaron Sinnoh's Elite

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    I don't get the moon setup. Why would the moon even do its command? thats just hurting its chances in the voting round.
     
  21. Roild

    Roild Member

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    Moon can target himself too now, so it comes to A) Would the moon be straight enough to use it on himself or B) Would the moon try a double take assuming people suspect option A.

    Assuming the moon uses his action at all.
     
  22. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    The Moon's fake expose doesn't stop it from being a randfest. I don't think 3 player really works for Zelda, given that there is no poison nor roles which cannot kill for a delayed period of time (other than Moon). Moon can mess with villagers who don't understand the theme and win easily. But assuming all players are reasonably well informed, it's simply Vanilla. I don't think it should appear in the same list on /playedgames as the well-known killfest that is standard Zelda. It makes no sense that they considered the same when they don't even share the same PRs or enemies.

    If you were to try and make 3p Zelda functional, I'd more interested in something like Zelda/Naryu/Ganondorf. Naryu simply protects both players, while Ganon tries to kill Naryu in order to win. Zelda meanwhile inspects to figure out whom to lynch. Another 50/50 scenario, but at least all players are in control of their plays. It's also quite fitting with Ocarina of Time lore.

    Or something in the killfest nature of Zelda, like Kotake/Impa/Link. Kotake can try distracting Impa and killing Link to win, so it's a matter of figuring out roles. They could also just let Link randkill and maybe hit Impa.

    I don't know, Zelda just doesn't seem built for 3 player.
     
  23. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    The correct statement would be "Mafia doesn't work well with only 3 players". Very few 3p setups actually work decently. For the rest (including Zelda here), it's just so players have something to play on dead times.
    Also, I'd rather have a mind-game focused setup like the one with Moon than a "use your command on the right person" like the Zelda/Nayru/Ganondorf (and others similar).
     
  24. Ghengars Khan

    Ghengars Khan Banned

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    I think Sheik should be added as a transformation to Zelda (/transform). Sheik herself would be a watcher or tracker, which ever would be in-character for the ninja. Basically something like what is in SSBB, except Zelda (Sheik) has more of a main role in this theme.
     
  25. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    That would be interesting. Zelda is currently the most useless role in the small game spawn after Tingle. Impa/Link are really the only vitals of the game. Giving them something else to do could be fun. But...

    does the village really need more stuff? Already can hardly lose in game where Impa doesn't die n1. Zelda transform should only be large games if anything. Speaking of large games, better PRs past Tingle would be nice. Not that Tingle is particularly useful. Navi onwards are pretty one-dimensional and boring. Their purpose is mostly to a) claim to Link so he can find bad guys and b) provide minor tidbits of info. Everything rests on Impa/Nayru living or dying. After that the village just crumbles.

    But that's relatively minor. Despite these flaws I like the theme as it is now. It's simple. It's chaotic. It's a bloodbath.

    There's one thing I really want to see changed. Give Malladus a vote of 2 or 4. He currently cannot win 1v1 against Ganon, and Vaatis can vote him off too easily as well. Despite being the godfather, he remains relatively weak in large games.

    Edit: I'll fetch some logs to prove my point.

    Edit2: Shiek would have to be more than just a stalker/watcher. Inspect is literally superior. Watch has the advantage of possibly identifying killers if you watch a dead person, otherwise both can give you incomplete info, while Inspect is concrete.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2014
  26. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    What could be done to give Shiek a selling point, and not make it ridiculously OP for the village, is to make her poison whoever kills her or something along those lines. We don't need a third mayor and a semi-bulletproof watcher/stalker would add only more wealth to the giant gold cup that is the village.
     
  27. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    Or we could not have Sheik. I usually say Zelda is one of the most popular themes because it does Default's job better than any other theme (including Default): It's a entry theme for new players. It has everything a new player needs to learn the game, including Defaultish roles + a role that claims, moles and an evil distractor so players can understand you can't simply claim as any role.

    A Poison-Revenge would still make village stronger. Bomb-like roles always benefit more the village (even when the bomb is mafia-sided) because mafia is always more likely to hit them.
     
  28. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    http://server.pokemon-online.eu/mafiathemes/Zelda_stats.html

    100-some odd games and Malladus hasn't won. Granted, he was only in 4 of those games. The sample is pretty small. However, I've yet to see a game where Malladus wins, past months included. It's simply not very feasible in the current setup. He should really have 4 votes, or at the very least 2.

    Another random suggestion: why not make Farore the upgrade Distractor? Impa 'evolves' into Naryu, so why not have Tingle 'evolve' into Farore for big games? A goddess that can't do anything beside having -2 votes seems silly. So, let Farore be the PL, which some sort of upgraded ability, retaining her -2 votes.
     
  29. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    Not sure why the above post hasn't been addressed, you can make all the appeals you want that Zelda is a better Default theme than Default (which is true, btw) but that doesn't mean you can't make slight adjustments to balance it out. A problem I've seen a lot is even if a solo mafia can get to the end, if Ganon is alive, he will almost always win in endgame situations since he can't die (only reason is because the lone villager will vote against him or he's voted out by Vaati's minions).

    The theme data for this month shows that Gerudo and Wind Mage have about equal winrates and combined with SK and Malladus' (2) wins it's about 50-50 for village-mafia. While this is okay at the very least, the main problem I've had a few people complain about is that lone mafias can't win very much, and a big factor is because Ganon wins 1v1 vs Malladus and SK (Malladus is forced to not kill at 4, because he needs ANYONE alive to help him vote off Ganon, same thing applies with Vaati, minion, citizen, Ganon set up, Wind Mage might as well not kill).

    So I'd suggest either extra votes for Malladus or a voteshield, as for SK, not sure. There's the whole 'only Link can defeat Ganondorf' lore that I'm fully willing to respect, but having a way for SK to get around Ganon, which he can't do unless Moon has spawned (and is alive), would be nice.

    Finally, apparently there's been some confusion as to who actually owns Zelda.

    http://pokemon-online.eu/threads/zelda.15971/page-3#post-322216 This says that Fuzzy gave it to Sky and Trace while this http://pokemon-online.eu/threads/zelda.15971/page-3#post-322227 says that Rice has been 'managing' over it without any problem from the sMAs, which is perfectly fine with me, but it seems no one truly owns Zelda, and that needs to be adjusted so that we can have people suggest changes to the right person so if anything needs to be done, it can without us having to bother an sMA.
     
  30. Sky Sentinel

    Sky Sentinel You see?

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    I'm sure that "We have adopted this theme" is prioritized over "I have been updating it with community suggested fixes because I have the author's name", so Trace and myself are more than technically the owners
     
  31. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    I'm not against making changes at all, but I'm against adding tons of characters when the theme doesn't really need them (like the Sheik suggestion a few posts above).

    Voting power for Malladus is fair. And Vote > Voteshield, as its more offensive-oriented, which is what makes Malladus a cool role. IMO, the vote shouldn't be higher than King (maybe the same 3 votes?).
    It could also be a voteMultiplier, but I'd rather leave it out of this theme for the sake of simplesness.

    For Skull Kid vs Ganondorf case, I like to think of SK as a role meant for a prank-oriented game style, so perhaps an ability that allows it to frame other players would be better than a killing ability. Kind of a fake-expose, but I think a fake-expose would feel out of place in this theme. Could also be a suggest-type of action (Like DN's L), but I don't think people would follow Skull Kid's suggestion.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2014
  32. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    I'll leave my suggestion here, cuz I think it's a half-decent one. Whoever ends up making changes:

    (16:36:16) Miki Sayaka: give every killing role command.[kill,dummy] and give sk dummy.mode.killattacker
    (16:36:19) Miki Sayaka: to pierce ganon
    (16:36:54) Miki Sayaka: sk also would have
    (16:36:58) Miki Sayaka: kill.mode.evade
    (16:37:05) Miki Sayaka: just revenges nightkills

    (16:41:59) Idoun: can you make it
    (16:42:01) Idoun: so it evade
    (16:42:05) Idoun: vaati
    (16:42:09) Idoun: and malla
    (16:42:12) Idoun: and kill ganon and din
    Means it can't be xfired, and wins 100% 1v1 against any mafia (even 2v1 if not in the voting phase). It wouldn't increase xfire, since xfire would still be xfire, except on the attacker instead of on SK. Going with what Mumu said, it could evade roles that it doesn't necessarily need to kill, and only revenge Din/Ganon. Just another suggestion, but it covers up SK's insane weakness to xfire and gives him a solid chance if he outlasts Link.
     
  33. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    Just my personal opinion, and not sure how much it's going to help, but in terms of ownership, I'd give it to Rice. He just got done with Math in Review but, in terms of themes, we've seen that overall, his themes are better built than Sky's (no offense, but it's true), and that's not taking anything away from trace but I'm rather have one person in charge of this that doesn't have a full plate.

    And then in terms of SK, I like Miki's suggestion the best. It seems to fit the flavor and gets that balance issue fixed. Id use what he said.