I'm totally with you, I mean why can't-- wait, wait, wait, wait! I think I've got a good idea. The idea is, there is only one legitimate PR baddie in a big game, like, when two Koume, one is a fake/miller. Is it good to try?
What about both the ideas? And please, someone adopt this theme, I don't think there have been any changes at all, lately!
Has no one adopted this theme yet? I added the Moon role, and since then there was no update, and Fuzzy even told me once I "kind of adopted, since I was hosting it", which I don't feel I really did. I could adopt this theme, since it needs some stuff for 30+ games, and I kind of wanted at some point, but it's been a while since Zelda games got me interested, so I don't really know which characters could be used.
if you're not comfortable with doing it yourself, by that i mean discuss things here or i'd adopt it but same thing, haven't played that many in a long time.
Zelda is one of my most favorite themes and one the major ones on the channel and I think that is testimony for why we shouldnt change it; However even i have noticed some of the flaws in it, and making it a better theme wouldnt be against my ideas. So here i have gathered info and stuff showing some of the ideas i have had for it. So I think no one really needs to "adopt" this theme, just need to be able to code people's ideas on it. On the theme as a whole I don't believe there are big problems... well maybe the millions of kills... but I think the main thing that needs doing is to get more of the newer characters into the theme because at the moment it doesnt have lots of the new guys. The problem with that is that the series has a solid core of the same characters really so the memorable "new" ones are just baddies that would just add extra kills to the fray. So the likes of Demise, Gihrahim etc are just extra mafia to worry about. But like Rice said stuff is needed for 30+ games so that there arent millions of killers and just millions of citizens Things that Kill Skull Kid - 1 kill, fastest but not kefka fast, reveals as citi, ignores distract and no hax Moon3 - 1 kill Malladus - 2 kills, kills distractors Din - 1 kill Vaati - 1 kill, Cant be distracted Vaati Minions - 1 kill Koume - 1 kill and Daykill Kotake - 1 kill and distract Ganondorf - 1 kill, cant be distracted, only killed by Link/votes Link - Daykill So thats like max 10 kills a day + 1 in the lynch, thats maximum like 10/11 players gone around (Moon's is every 3) which in my opinion should be reduced to perhaps 5-7 Max. But how would this go about? At 43 players there are: 2 on Side SK (SK, Moon) 2 kills max per night/day 27 on Village (Nayru, Link, Zelda, 14 Citizens, 2 Tingle, 1 King, 1 Navi, 2 Farore, 2 Midna, 2 Din) 2 kills max per night/day (dins share right?) 7 players on Vaati Side (Vaati, 6 Minions) 2 Kills max 1 Malladus 2 kills max 5 Ganon (2 Koume,2 Kotake, 1 Ganondorf) 2 kills max So as that looks the whole theme is pretty balanced kills wise, except maybe for Skull Kid but not balanced people and other actions wise Other Actions Team SK - Highest Prio Kill, SK reveals as citi, ignores distract,no hax; moon Village - Inspect, 2 Protects, 2 Distract, Daykill, Mayor, Spy, 2 -mayor, Millions of Villagers Vaati - People Power Malladus - kills distractors Ganons - daykill, distract What we can see happening is that each team is a bit odd in different respects, it seems like all these characters needed to be in, which seems to have produced some odd occurances. Basically SK is still horrendusly underpowered, there are millions of villagers, millions of minion and malladus feels out of place Ideas for Stuff 1.Send Malladus over to Team SK and remove 1 of the kills Means that Team SK has more member and Malladus is a mega killing machine, means they have a chance for more kills over all however not lots of other actions except for moon stuff so i think it could work. But not really reducing the number of kills and no addition of new members but this can be done in conjunction with other things. 2.Villagers! I think the thing to do here would be to add some extra pro town roles in but then people will say on how the Town is soo much mooore overpoweeeered and such like. But anyway here are some ideas for some more town roles: Epona - I think this has been mentioned before but maybe something like has to be alive for Link to use daykill; if dead then Link turns into a village Derpy :D Groose - Something that just gets in the way not really sure what this would do though Fi - Possibly Stalk BEEDLE - How is he not in it yet! Traveling merchant beedle! Should be like bus driver uses people actions as payment for other ones! Postman - HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEY! Thats basically the role, there are lots of funny characters in Zelda series and Postman is one of the best (in my own opinion) Oshus (Old guy in Phantom Hourglass) - Does nothing till N4/5 then transforms in the OCEAN KING which could have like 5 votes, gives Link back daykill if epona dead.... This and Epona would be a hell of a thing to code... probably does some other stuff as well, DOESNT KILL we dont want more of those Linebeck - Just cause he's hillarious and get Jolene in there for some comedy gold :D I can probably think up some more and so can everyone else, I think the villager issue is the only real problem atm and I hope we can kinda get this sorted 3.Shadow Link I think this could be a nice option to do which would counter any extra roles we put into the village. This would be on Skull Kid's side and basically it is Link but on baddies side. So in the game there would be two links that both have a revealing daykill, neither can kill each other but there would need to be a way that the village can find out which is which without going for a 50/50 rand. This would force Nayru to protect both thereby using her protects so she doesnt jeopardise the village from loosing link and also Zelda or someone else would have to reveal to connect the PRs. I think malladus would have to be taken out for this to work and perhaps some other stuff as well but i think overall it would add a nice twist to the theme if added in. 4.ClanWar This is kinda the only thing i can think of really to so something with the vaati side and that is to make it clan war style and just give them loads of prs. But to balance youd have to give team SK and team Ganon loads more Prs as well so Im not sure what this would achieve really, youd just have Zelda but clanwar .... --- Overall i think that i have outlined where changes might need to be made, some ideas to those changes and overall theme change ideas. However I would like to say again that I think that as shown by the number times people play it that it isnt a bad theme and doesnt need lots of changes, or any at all. I might change my view after hearing some other ideas on the topic but at the moment Im just starting discussion as opposed to actually wanting change.
Linebeck and Oshus would make fun roles, lol. And regardless of how many kills there are we really do need new roles
Linebeck should be like DKC so self protects to save himself ... and when feeling brave can come out into WOO LINEBECK form to kick some badguys in the face
Hmmm... too UP. I'd rather give it a (Non-revealing) Daykill (every 2 days), protect each night (AnyButSelf) and a vote of +2 because he's a Captain. The Daykill can be /map because he'll give, the one who he's killing, a map, that will say it leads to a treasure, but it leads to a Pit instead. And he should /inspect once every 2 nights, with a fail chance of 20%. Does that seem OP now? I rather think not, because why is he a Captain, then?
Ok... but then how about: • Starts as DKC, named Linebeck. • Can convert to Captain Linebeck using /captain. • Gets a revealing Daykill (like a mentioned, that same way), but only once a game. • Protects (AnyButSelf) every 2 nights. • And also, just like the Daykill, a once a game /inspect at night that has a 20% fail chance. Now, too many actions, but he uses 4 actions per game (almost max). That ok?
well, villages seems OP at smallgames even impa and tingle died Link obviously connected with zelda, hit the ganon then lynch vaati i think ganon need some voteshield at smallgames or vote count as +2?
Personally I think Malladus needs a buff. Think about it; It can almost never win. Skull kid and vaatis (and din....eh) have priority. Ganon evades nightkills. The only killers it can beat are Kotake and Koume, and depending on the situation, only Kotake. I believe we should give Malladus a plus vote or possibly another teammate, but nothing like bringing it over to Skull Kid's side. And we also need a nice Ghirahm and Demise combo. Demise would be a kuja and Ghirahm would poison. (Or Ghirahm can just kill, stalk, or inspect, considering he is a diverse character idk). And they would have teamreveal..(or not).
Why do people want poisoners and Kuja in all themes? They cause far too much impact to a theme that didn't use to have them, and it will just make all themes look the same. Remember when Bellum was added to Zelda and it was a disaster? Poison/Kuja would be the same, or even worse, as they would change the core of the theme for all sides in the game. I can agree with village's strength, but I don't think vote/voteshield for Ganondorf would fix anything. The role is already immune to crossfire and distractors, having extra voting power, specially in small games, would make it too strong. What I think is that Village doesn't need both Link and Zelda so early in the game. Having a Samurai, BG and Inspector at 5 players is far too strong.
Chances are, no one remembers outside of a select few anymore. Even I don't remember Bellum in Zelda outside of the unused code in the theme. (Analyst or whatever for best role)
As I said in my mega post above (#88) what we dont need is more killers really editing the spawn list would help but an appliance of new roles would mean there is more difference in the theme as opposed to loads of villagers and minions
Well if it is not killers we want, then we can give the village a stalker or exposer. Or maybe we can change the mafia (Malladus in particular) to not kill, but do something like convert. But what would I know :frown:
Horrible Idea Coming Through: Malladus could be able to convert people to a specific role. Possibly a Demon that just adds a vote to Malladus, while Malladus himself has a vote of +2/+3 and a kill every night. Or I suppose we can just take away the convert and give Malladus one kill and + vote.
Well, in recent light of the overhaul of FE, and the obvious imbalance of Zelda, myself and Sky Sentinel are taking over Zelda and will fix the balance issue, with permission from Fuzzy ofc. Feel free to provide suggestions to fix this as well.~
You know, I've been managing Zelda in the last months. Not exactly adopted, but I was the one who made latest fixes and updates, so I'd like to have priority (or at least a voice) over that adoption decision.
Zelda has been more of a community effort as of late, so I'd say that if someone wanted to adopt it they could, and Trace asked about it...
regarding any version of Zelda I feel Kotake should be > Tingle in terms of PL distracts, Tingle's ability to PL stall Gerudo, who has Ganon immune to distracts, is really disadvantageous to the Gerudo team
Hi! I think Zelda Theme can go down to 3 players. in a game of 3: Zelda, Link, and Ganondorf. The game will either go, Ganondorf kills Link, ties with Zelda, and then wins, or Ganondorf kills Zelda, and loses. in a game of 4: Link, Zelda, Navi, and Ganondorf (lol) The goal for this game would be for the triforce of power wielder (ganondorf) to trick and confuse link into killing his own partner, while zelda tries to convince link into believing her, and killing the king of evil. Navi is there just to say "hey listen! im navi!" Ganondorf must use his evil cunning to trick link. then the game goes into a game of 5! :D what do you guys think? Zelda Link and Ganondorf would be accurate to the series, and in a game of 4, it mimics Ocarina of time!
That'd be pretty nice except for the fact that Ganon could just kill Link and avoid all of that altogether.
That's true for games of 4 and up. Issue with your 3 person game is that Ganon can just kill Link and thus there really is no game to be had.
Game with samurai-mafia-inspector is essentially a 50-50. If Ganon kills Zelda he loses, if he kills Link he wins. If he chooses not to kill then he has to fake being Zelda and then correctly guess which one of them is Zelda so they can frame an inspect. Bottom line - too silly, not worth the effort really imo. Navi would essentially be a villager because Ganon can't be haxed. A game of 4 is even more flawed against Ganon because he can only get rid of Link or Zelda so even if he kills Link n1 there are still two villagers and Ganon again has to claim Zelda and try to frame the real Zelda (this is not at all difficult for village to win, real Zelda can get her insp result out faster because she doesn't need to devise any artifice) Minplayers is fine at 5. Not sure if it's appropriate to double post here, but some changes that might be good for mafia sides. - Add in Dark Link. In games with Nayru Dark Link would spawn at 19 and neither he and Link can kill each other. Both have the same daykill message. - Increase Malladus' vote to 2.5. I took a look at the Zelda+ project Trace and Sky were attempting and they had split Malladus into Demies and Ghirahim. I'm unfamiliar with the game(s) Malladus is in so I can' comment on it, but an alternating night bodyguard might benefit the Malladus side.
Well someone has to do SOMETHING, so sure. I agree wholeheartedly with the inclusion of Dark Link. I still think we should just replace Malladus with someone newer though
IMO, the Dark Link concept is cool but it should be used on another theme. Zelda is already a theme where only 2 PRs are actually reliable, making one of them not reliable is going to hurt the theme a lot. I've been thinking that Zelda should change as little as possible. Even though it can be considered outdated in terms of mafia features, it's one of the most popular themes, and in my opinion, because Zelda does Default's job better than any other theme (including default itself): A theme easy to learn the basics of mafia, working as a good entry point for new players. The only change I really feel necessary is regarding the solo roles, but even about that I changed my mind and think they should keep being solo instead of being split into a 2-man team.
Malladus buff that's about it The only suggestion for that, that I can think of is either more votes or DK bomb
My actual opinion is that 2 solo roles is already too much. I wouldn't really mind if either Skull Kid + Moon or Malladus were gone, but I don't think removing either will make the theme better. Keeping Malladus as a solo role (with some possible buff) is better to maintain the ratio of good/bad roles that spawn in the game, as only a few Citizens spawn even in larger games. It also help the theme keep its simplicity and encourage better playing by having less "expendable" baddies getting themselves sacrificied. @zach33: A solo role with bomb abilities is meaningless. It doesn't help them at winning the game (unless you meant 'counter', which is also not a good idea IMO).