Not to mention, if one of the PRs doesn't know what they're doing, the whole village suffers. There needs to be more balancing in larger themes.
Well, he did, but that's actually quite beside the point. The person who started the whole RemakeZelda idea was Sky, so therefore obviously he is the person who has to give evidence/ideas, not me. A basic rule, then.
So not canon. What about a role like "Heart Container" or "Fairy Bottle"... When a PR dies, whoever is that role is allowed to assume the role of the dead PR. So like, if Link kills Impa day 1, then the Heart Container/Fairy Bottle can convert that night into Impa. It would require a lot of roles to make sure PRs don't overlap (aka, 2 Link) but it would be like Stem Cell (from Body) on steroids. Then you can add some of the new bad guys from the Zelda games and make them stronger in order to balance the "revival" system. (This is an idea I had for my other theme in development but due to a lack of progress on putting features into Mafia, I had to cancel)
I was actually siding with you here. @Fuzzy's suggestion: I don't think it needs to change the nature of the theme, but 1 or 2 roles added or changed could be a good thing. That happened several times with FF (when Ultimecia was added, or when Cecil was updated), and I can see those small but relevant changes working well in this theme too.
Spoiler (16:13:39) *************************************************************************************** (16:13:39) Times Up! : (16:13:39) ±Kill: x-Yalaa-x (Link) died! (16:13:39) ±Kill: FXSniperFN (Citizen) died! (16:13:39) ±Kill: God Hobo (Zelda) died! (16:13:39) ±Game: You were killed during the night! (16:13:39) ±Kill: Human Destroyer (Tingle) died! (16:13:39) ±Kill: RandomGuyNat (Nayru) died! (16:13:39) ±Kill: Claudia La Belle (Citizen) died! (16:13:39) ***************************************************************************************[/HIDE] Remind me how town is supposed to recover from Night 1 kill fests like these? EDIT: This was a 20 player game. Why the hell are there 6 kills night 1? That's ridiculous to be honest.
It's probably worth saying I was Malladus and I sniped BG and PL. But again, I'm just saying, they're random kills. Bads could easily have died. That's not a very regular occurence. Why hadn't Link claimed? etc.
Spoiler The same thing could be said about any theme, it was just unlucky that lots of the Village PRs got killed n1, the mafia sides could have just as easily been decimated, leaving an easy win for the village
It was 20 players, but it's ironic you brought that up Fuzzy, because most Koume players play to win, but Link's so scared of them they don't claim anyway. Most players are too selfish to snipe revealed Link anyway. So even if it was there it's not a huge deterrent imo.
(15:24:42) *************************************************************************************** (15:24:42) Current Roles: Farore, Malladus. (15:24:42) Current Players: Fuzzysqurl, Jynxerneas. (15:24:42) Current Team: Farore (15:24:42) Time: Day 4 (15:24:42) It's time to vote someone off, type /Vote [name], you only have 30 seconds! : (15:24:42) *************************************************************************************** (15:24:44) Fuzzysqurl: Farore shouldnt beo n VCLR (15:24:51) ±Game:Jynxerneas voted for Fuzzysqurl! (15:24:51) Fuzzysqurl: cant win in a 1vs1 with anyone (15:24:56) ±Game: That person is not playing! (15:24:58) Uglybuff joined the channel. (15:25:00) ±Game:Fuzzysqurl voted for Jynxerneas! (15:25:00) *************************************************************************************** (15:25:00) Times Up! : (15:25:00) ±Game: Fuzzysqurl (Farore) was removed from the game! (15:25:00) ±Game: The Demon King (Jynxerneas) wins! (15:25:00) ********************************************** Whoever is working on Zelda please change. Farore cannot win in a 1 vs 1 with any bad guy in Zelda as they all possess a kill. EDIT: http://pastebin.com/FRh4mAuK is Zelda with just that changed.
I don't get howw the majority agrees, at all! 1 person posted one post, 1 person said they'd help if there was a remake, I'm against it - majority?
This is something I try to avoid with my themes by making different villagers and roles so I don't screw up canon. I'm all for adding in a few more roles to make Zelda suck less in big games. There are obviously WAYYYYYYYYYYY too many repeated roles, and all in all it just makes for a boring game. I don't think we should remake this in any way. We should just add in a few more roles in larger games, while keeping the feel of the theme.
I have to agree with you here. Although there are some users saying this theme needs something new, that's hardly "the majority". That said, I don't think we will get anywhere without actual suggestions, so here's mine: New role idea: The Moon. Code: Spoiler Code (Javascript): { "role": "moon", "translation": "Moon", "side": "werewolf", "help": "You are the Moon that threats to fall over Termina! As you get closer to the town, your powers change!", "actions": { "initialCondition": { "curse": { "curseCount": 2, "cursedRole": "moon1", "curseConvertMessage": "Dawn of First Day: 72 hours remaining." } } } }, { "role": "moon1", "translation": "Moon", "side": "werewolf", "help": "You are the Moon! For the next 24 hours, you can use /expose [name] during the day to reveal someone's identity while keeping yourself hidden!", "actions": { "initialCondition": { "curse": { "curseCount": 2, "cursedRole": "moon2", "curseConvertMessage": "Dawn of Second Day: 48 hours remaining." } }, "standby": { "expose": { "target": "AnyButSelf", "msg": "Type /expose [name] to reveal someone's role (you won't be revealed!)", "exposemsg": "The Moon glares at ~Target~, the ~Role~!" } } } }, { "role": "moon2", "translation": "Moon", "side": "werewolf", "help": "You are the Moon! For the next 24 hours, your vote will count as +4!", "actions": { "initialCondition": { "curse": { "curseCount": 2, "cursedRole": "moon3", "curseConvertMessage": "Dawn of Final Day: 24 hours remaining." } }, "vote": 4 } }, { "role": "moon3", "translation": "Moon", "side": "werewolf", "help": "You are the Moon! For the next 24 hours, you can type /kill [name] during the night to defeat an opponent!!", "actions": { "initialCondition": { "curse": { "curseCount": 2, "cursedRole": "moon1", "curseConvertMessage": "♪ ►A▼►A▼ ♪ - Dawn of First Day: 72 hours remaining." } }, "night": { "kill": { "target": "AnyButTeam", "common": "Self", "priority": 17 } } } } [/HIDE]Explanation: Spoiler This role is based on Majora's Mask's Moon. Because Skull Kid is responsible for the Moon threat, this role is sided with him (although there's no team-reveal). This role has 3 main forms: First Form (1st day): Can expose a player during the day. Changes to Second Form at the end of N2. Second Form (2nd day): Vote counts as +4. Changes to Third Form at the end of N3. Third Form (Final day): Can nightkill one target (not shared with Skull Kid). Changes to First Form at the end of N4. After the Final form converts back to the First, the cycle is restarted and repeated until the game is cleared the role is defeated/the game ends. Also, once the Moon changes form, it won't keep the previous powers. [/HIDE] This is a suggestion that, IMO, is enough to make the theme more interesting without changing its basic structure. Feel free to comment, suggest stuff or point what you don't like about this idea, but please don't just say "this theme doesn't need any change". Of course, you are free to have that opinion, but the point I'm bringing up here is not that. My intention here is to show some possible ways to improve this theme without breaking its basic structure, and if enough people approve it, then we can discuss if it's a worthy addition. BTW, the actions specific to each form coded here are just an initial draft. We could change them if everyone thinks there are better abilities for this role.
Idk why it changes back, but I never played Majora's Mask. Two things: The majority of posters HAVE stated that they think the theme needs work. And it was an exaggeration considering in that big game everyone was like "wtf" on the server I think rice has a great idea in the moon but why does it change back? <_< finally above all, i think we should decide whether or not we're actually going to make changes SOMEONE needs to adopt the theme anyway, and i was the first one to post about changes so i'd do it or beast could do it if no one likes me Considering someone needs to adopt it anyway i'm fairly certain it's going to get changed ESPECIALLY WITH THE ERRORS
In Majora's Mask, the entire game runs through a 3-day circle that can be reset when you play the Song of Time. Also, majority of posters != majority of players. And deciding on who should adopt a theme based on who asked first? If that's the case, I can fetch a post I made 4 months ago requesting to adopt this theme.
Ganondorf gets distracted by Tingle if Kotake is PLed... But if Tingle is on Ganon, he ignores. That would be fixed by having Ganon appear before Kotake because right now Kotake is first. Recommending change.
How would that be "fixed"? That's the whole point: Gerudos can only be distracted if Tingle is on Koume or Kotake. This is similar to Don Italian Mafia (Ganondorf) and Italian Mafia (Koume/Kotake).
General consensus seems to be that this is a classic, yet outdated theme. If someone would like to adopt and fix it up, feel free to do so, but make sure you keep the original. Comments from me: As it stands, Ganondorf reaches the late game in almost every small- and mid-sized game on the server; I'd like to propose a change. Rather than Ganon being completely unkillable, it could employ something like Ocean does with Clownfish + Sea Anemone: Ganon is unkillable, but only when Kotake is alive, or something along those lines. I like the addition of Rice's moon, as an extra role would remove Citi clutter and give Skull Kid a shot at winning. If someone would like to fix up the "roles," that would be superb as well.
Default's conspirator is a completely different case. That was a role badly designed that would go against the way default is meant to be played. I will mention FF theme again: a long time ago, before most of those commands were implemented to Mafia, there was no Ultimecia. Yet, adding that role didn't make people flood any thread complaining about the theme because it made sense within that theme. From my point of view, this theme is not outdated because it doesn't have the most recent features, but because this theme doesn't have anything to offer that is already not offered by other themes (and here I'm counting themes that came before/at the same times as this one). Surely, one may argue that villager starting with Samurai in any game is a strong point (and I agree to this), but as games grow bigger, this advantage is lost due to Koume who some people may argue that they can choose to not kill Link for strategical reasons, but in the end they still restrict Link's movements merely by being in the game, making the selling point of this theme go to waste. This is even worse at even larger games, where a second Koume can appear. I'm not sure I got what you meant here. Mafia will always make it to the end, since the game is over when they don't. Even if you were talking about Werewolf and Godfather, I can't understand how this comparison to default has any relation to the issue mentioned by MeowMix. Skull Kid may have more advantages than other lones roles (immune to distraction and inspection), but those advantages are not that useful in a theme where Inspector and Distractor rarely play a big role. Also, being inspected as a Citizen is only useful when the player leading the villager is inexperienced. Against other players, that can only make Zelda back off for a while. Also, Skull Kid is quite vulnerable when you compare it with other solo roles (e.g. Plutonium, Kronos), and he's also completely unable to defeat a specific team without other teams' help, since he can't kill or outvote Ganondorf by itself. And we often see players being revealed as a killer (including Skull Kid) when they risk themselves by randing or exposing someone as an evader. ---- That said, I agree that this theme is popular as it is and shouldn't lose its essence. But it still has lots of unsolved flaws and no one currently owns this theme, so I have a proposal to make to both Theme Makers and QC Staff: Allow any theme maker to make a new version of this theme and submit to Mafia Review. If anyone ever manages to pass (which I think it will take time, since the standard will be set high for this theme), let that person adopt the theme for the time being. This should work for both parts, since people who think this theme needs an update will have to prove that can be done without messing with the theme, while people who defend it can properly review and argument to any change proposed. Of course, this requires that Mafia QC Staff compromises to reviewing those new submissions without any bias toward their opinion regarding the current state.
Default's Conspirator failed because the idea was terrible, but FF's Ultimecia worked because it fit the theme. When someone tried to add Bellum to Zelda, it failed hard because it would disrupt the theme's nature, but a better designed role could make this theme better. This has nothing to do with the theme being old or not, but with the update being well designed. Except SSBB is not a theme where the Samurai is the center figure, so Meta Knight by itself cannot disrupt the theme's concept. Zelda, on the other hand, it's a theme where having a reliable Samurai is the only redeeming characteristic, but at some point that cannot be enjoyed anymore. This could be compared to Mythology having Demigods that couldn't get hax or Fruits without Apple: those still would work as themes, but their main characteristic would be lost, making them a really plain theme. I still have no clue what you mean with this. You said "Ganon has to make to the end because, in Default, Mafia makes to the end 90% of the time", which makes no sense because Mafia makes to the end 100% of the time. Should this mean Ganondorf has to make to the end 100% of the time in Zelda too? So it's OK for a role to always survive until the end just becase the basic rules of mafia say "Once Mafia is wiped out, Village wins"? This makes absolutely no sense. Except Citizens have no way of confirming someone as Ganondorf, so it won't be "suspected Skull Kid", it will be "confirmed nightkiller". Not much of an advantage here. Also, let's compare Skull Kid to Ganondorf: Neither can be distracted or haxed; Skull Kid has the fastest kill, while Ganondorf has the slowest; Skull Kid is inspected as Citizen, while Ganondorf evades nightkills. If I just mention those abilities, it may sound like they are balanced, but in reality they aren't. So what if Skull Kid has the fastest kill? Ganondorf can't be nightkilled anyway, so attacking last makes absolutely no difference for him. Also, what is better, to avoid inspections (in a theme with only 1 Inspector) or to avoid nightkills (in a theme with possible 7 deaths every night)? I think it's clear that Skull Kid is not a balanced role. It's way weaker than Ganondorf, who even has a team, and its main advantages rarely are useful. It's probably the role that depends more on crossfire and other lucky stuff to win in the server. It can win? Of course it can, but that doesn't mean the theme is balanced.
Exactly, I don't. I even asked what you meant with one of your replies to MeowMix, and your answer was even more confusing. Suddenly getting an "I won't bother anymore" while I'm trying to understand what you said there is just making things even more confusing and not helping with the discussion.
Bumping this thread to restart the discussion on updates to this theme. A few issues have been discussed before, but since no one owns this theme, nothing was done. Among the problems pointed, I'd say the most relevant is the fact that after Koume is introduced at 23 players, no new role is added, making games with 24+ players become a flood of Citizens, Vaati Minions and at a certain point even duplicate PRs (Farore, Din, Tingle, etc). I want to suggest then the addition of one or two new (but simple) role to games with 27+ players. The plan is to add something new without breaking the theme's basic structure. As a suggestion for the role, I'd like to bring up again the Moon role I suggested before on this post: http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/showthread.php?15971-Zelda&p=241796&viewfull=1#post241796 It doesn't need to be this role, just a role that will bring something new without forcing any other change to the theme (no need for safeguards or other stuff like that). Also, a village-sided role for 30+ players games could be interesting too to avoid the repeated PRs and Citizen flood.
This is stagnated. General view is that Moon removes clutter/makes SK viable (though I won as SK in a huge game a few days ago!) so coding it and testing should be started up soon.
I actually found a bug with curse that will prevent that role from working properly, so it's not possible to test it until the fix is merged. But I already tested on another server and the cycling mechanic works well (and looks promising). But I still think another PR for even bigger games would be necessary (30+ players) to prevent those duplicate PRs issue. I always hoped for an Epona role, but I have no idea what it could do without breaking the theme :x
Perhaps a role like Sea Anemone, making Link to evade some nightkills (every nightkill and daykill would be OP, like it happens to Anemone/Clown) while she is alive. This way, Link can wait Koumes to die without claiming and having a good surviving chance.
Spoiler (10:49:31) Times Up! : (10:49:31) The Roles have been Decided! : (10:49:31) Current Roles: Ganondorf, Impa, Link, Vaati, Zelda. (10:49:31) Current Players: Angryimp, Lucario_3, Magmarex, Megaman ZX 2000, Quolius. (10:49:31) Time: Night 1 (10:49:31) Make your moves, you only have 30 seconds! : (10:49:31) *************************************************************************************** (10:49:36) Lucario_3: lmfao wow (10:49:38) Lucario_3: link here (10:49:43) ±Game: The game is in progress. Please type /join to join the next mafia game. (10:49:44) Lucario_3: prs pm (10:49:47) Megaman ZX 2000: what? (10:49:48) Megaman ZX 2000: we lost (10:49:54) sleepingdiamond changed names and is now known as diamondslight. (10:49:55) Lucario_3: prs (10:49:56) Lucario_3: pm (10:49:59) Magmarex: ganon here o.o (10:49:59) Magmarex: lag (10:50:01) *************************************************************************************** (10:50:01) Times Up! : (10:50:01) ±Kill: Angryimp (Vaati) died! (10:50:01) *************************************************************************************** (10:50:01) Current Roles: Ganondorf, Impa, Link, Zelda. (10:50:01) Current Players: Lucario_3, Magmarex, Megaman ZX 2000, Quolius. (10:50:01) Time: Day 1 (10:50:01) You have 30 seconds to debate who are the bad guys! : (10:50:01) *************************************************************************************** (10:50:06) Magmarex: lolk (10:50:06) Megaman ZX 2000: get magmarex (10:50:08) Megaman ZX 2000: zelda here (10:50:08) *************************************************************************************** (10:50:08) ±Game: Lucario_3 raises the Master Sword into the air, followed by a few quick slashes to kill Magmarex! (10:50:08) ±Kill: Magmarex (Ganondorf) died! (10:50:08) ±Game: The People of Hyrule (Megaman ZX 2000, Lucario_3 and Quolius) wins! (10:50:08) *************************************************************************************** (10:50:12) Quolius: LOL (10:50:12) Angryimp: wow (10:50:13) Lucario_3: #winning (10:50:14) Roild - AFK: so imbalanced (10:50:15) Megaman ZX 2000: too easy (10:50:16) Angryimp: x fire n1 (10:50:16) Lucario_3: ikr (10:50:18) Roild - AFK: Like shit (10:50:18) Lucario_3: that was awful I might go through and rework this. Possibly add a few roles? Games of 5 is literally x-fire and lose. Claim link and zelda can spot any other fakes if needed. Unless town plays excessively bad, they are guaranteed a win.
tbh 5-player Zelda can easily fluctuate. If bads counter-claim there's a high chance Village will lose. Even if Impa dies n1 and Ganon dies d1, Vaati has a 50% chance to win. It's not really unbalanced if the bads know the tricks of the trade.
Mafia can win if they claim link and/or serious fakeclaiming. But you pretty much need to fakeclaim. I guess that's okay in a way. But it really is required to do, assuming everyone is competent.
I appreciate the addition of the moon but it certainly needs more, imo. I think there have been a few new games since this theme was made. For instance phantoms from phantom hourglass might be cool. Bombs? Girahim/demise would obviously be nice. Sheik? Maybe? Zelda can convert herself (as in smash bros) and do something else like kill maybe? Dunno There's still a lot missing from this theme imo even though i brought that up months ago ._.
19:47:30) *************************************************************************************** (19:47:30) Times Up! : (19:47:30) ±Kill: Wasabi121 (Vaati's minion) died! (19:47:30) ±Kill: Yagura (Skull Kid) died! (19:47:30) ±Kill: Zony11 (Citizen) died! (19:47:30) ±Kill: bbyJesus (Citizen) died! (19:47:31) ±Kill: chiaotzu (Citizen) died! (19:47:31) ±Kill: Zidane FFIX (Kotake) died! (19:47:31) ±Game: Dawn of First Day: 72 hours remaining. (19:47:31) *************************************************************************************** (19:47:31) Current Roles: Citizen, Citizen, Citizen, Citizen, Citizen, Citizen, Citizen, Citizen, Citizen, Din, Farore, Farore, Ganondorf, King of Hyrule, Koume, Koume, Link, Malladus, Midna, Moon, Navi, Nayru, Tingle, Tingle, Vaati, Vaati's minion, Vaati's minion, Vaati's minion, Zelda. really still lol this needs to be fixed, seriously at least take out the double koumes/farores or something, geez