Thanks for the approvals, guys. Here's the version that will be uploaded if this passes: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=UYNEFJSe There's still stuff I'd like to do with it but, as is, I think this is a huge step in strategy from what Castle originally was.
I suppose I shall stop sitting on the fence and approve [7]. I can see you are starting to make changes to this theme to change it from what it once was, and I know that you as a theme maker will be receptive to any issues that may arise in future.
I just couldn't be bothered enough to check it, but make sure the current version is the one in the OP and I approve it [8].
Hi Narshen! I hadn't posted on this thread yet, which does not mean I haven't been seeing it. After everything said, after every updates made, I still have few concerns about this theme: Spoiler - Before the deletion, I didn't like this theme. Which seems to have been fixed. It seems to be way better now, but it has to be even more improved. - Since there is no way the Wood Elves are on the game and this role is useless for this theme, you'd remove them from your code. - I see no point on having "silentVote"; why don't you use "noLynch" instead? - Someone has suggested to give the inspectors an expose, and I agree with this. - Mage Knight's help text does no say he can inspect twice per night. - Why are the dragons called village? If there is "silentVote", it may come a situation that some non-killing roles stand for both teams at the end of the game, making the dragons instantly losing. - On small games, there may be an incredible murder at night 1, caused by BDM and RPK. I agree with Tesla: you'd have a weakened version of them for small games.[/HIDE] Decline [5] (Dark Phoenix changed his vote, so I'm assuming this is the 5th decline). Like I said, this theme was improved, but has some things that I think they should be fixed. EDIT: After some tests (with 10, 9 and 10 players), I'll keep my opinion on silentVote and the fact that this is a killfest. I don't know if you wanted it to be this way, but when the Enchantress and Priestess convert someone, they are exposed: Spoiler (02:25:49) ±Game: Dazzle! Bliss has been cast a spell on by the Templar Priestess, making them a Hatchling! (02:25:49) ±Game: Shine! Sky Sentinel has been cast a spell on by the Templar Priestess, making them a Hatchling! Also, the Dragon Enchantress message is wrong, saying that she is the Templar Priestess.[/HIDE] Finally, my opinion is kept for now. BTW, the tested verion was this: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=LVCuU1Ur
I don't get how this issue is related to the silentVote. Having one of the teams as a village is a way to prevent unneeded stalemates that require a MA to /end the game. I can't see how this is a problem. IMO, noLynch would make it even more of a killfest because roles without a kill action wouldn't be able to do anything with their powers.
(01:26:55) *************************************************************************************** (01:26:55) ±Game: A molten fireball swiftly strikes Kurapika and only ashes remain... (01:26:55) ±Kill: Kurapika (Radiant Paladin Knight) died! (01:26:55) *************************************************************************************** (01:26:58) *************************************************************************************** (01:26:58) ±Game: A javelin flies out of nowhere and pierces Fuzzysqurl's chest, an instant death. (01:26:58) ±Kill: Fuzzysqurl (Blazing Dragon Monarch) died! (01:26:58) *************************************************************************************** enough said
Some of them may not be connected, so, with a lynch (the problem is not the silentVote itself, but any kind of lynch) one of the teams may get rid of the other. Imagine if the dragons are connected and the paladins aren't? They could manage to lynch the paladins and win, but the condition for the village to lose would be achieved, making them to lose. Anyways, Narshen already re-named the dragons. There is no "village" side anymore Roles without a kill action: - Enchantress/Priestess: they now can actually stop some daykills, being able to be help for their team. - Rune/Mage: with more inspections, they can connect their teams more efficiently. If "this is Castle" and the method of eliminating players is killing them, I guess the voting phase is kinda useless. The ticks for both night and standby were increased and the Mayors were removed. I just think that the amount of kills is too damn high. They should be a bit lowered... perhaps some recharge for nightkills (except for MDA) or making the nightkills to be shared with team (and maybe even giving reveal role for the nightkiller roles...). Well, these were just some ideas, which can be accepted or not.
I see you actually put some work into it, and with some minor adjustments I think this has the potential to be a very good theme. It's less of a killfest now, and requires some strategy. Approved. [10]
holy crap ten approves let's do this also, i think you should put the wood elves back or some form of conspirator, but that's just my lame ghey opinion
Don't tell us how to do our jobs, thanks. And even though the roles HAVE been added, I'm still declining the theme as it's still a killing frenzy.
I wouldn't be so sure about this: http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/sho...ing-Guidelines&p=226631&viewfull=1#post226631 If that post is true, this theme should be approved and could be uploaded now.
You know, if people want to be rude and snide and call others "ignorant" then I could just leave this here with my reject. If you want to disagree with an opinion, fine do so. Make an argument. Resorting to personal attacks is just annoying, unhelpful, and frankly just wastes everyone's time. If you ask me, that sort of attitude is why people dislike mafia and what it stands for. I guess I'm just rambling at this point but I really hate when people do things like that. Disregarding that statement I will relook at this and make a decision because I care about doing a good job (ofc I would also like to think I'm not ignorant either but who knows?) I've played it more and decided that it can be pretty fun, that is, if you stay alive. Adding in silent vote was really a good idea, and improved it for me tons as it readds that element of strategy that I think was missing before. It allows the team that can get connected the fastest an advantage in the vote. That was one of the redeeming qualities of the theme when I played it I felt. I immensely enjoyed fakeclaiming (that is for the one game i managed to live past day 1). Right now, I think that the current strategy is who can get organized the fastest; whichever side does so wins, unless the neutral(s) can pull out a sneaky win. What I would like to see (unless convinced otherwise) is perhaps a role on both sides that is not day or night killable, but only lynchable. I think this role would develop the strategy of the game further; it allows for fakeclaims and such, while also ensuring that the side that organizes the fastest is the side most likely to win. You could also make this role a miller, which would defintely remove any formulaic aspect while retaining the strategy. Or I suppose I could be wrong and that's not the strategy. IDK, that was just my big thought. But I do think doing that would be very good for the strategy aspect of the theme while still preserving what makes Castle what it is. Don't add a conspirator. They're dumb. Final words: Good changes so far. Still not going to change my reject yet (although it probably won't matter in the end). If you can add what I asked (or convince me otherwise) then I will approve. Approved (11) i spoke with narshen and the things i would like will be added in, so in good faith i'm approving.
Perfect, thanks Michu and everyone else! That's the final approval necessary, giving Castle a +9 (+8 is necessary to be uploaded). I'm just going to code in the two cool roles I spoke to Michu about, fix one or two minor bugs and then upload it...hope you guys like it! And, to Fegelein and Li:
I'm not trying to turn this into an argument, but if you disliked those comments, then why did you refer to mine and not Narshen's? My opinion isn't necessarily correct, but it's still my opinion, and actually unlike you, I wasn't rude enough to specify people. P.S. Fegelein, there's no problem with that at all. Apart from the "Wiki links only" thread, which didn't exactly go so well, and perhaps this thread (again, specification) I wouldn't say I've corrected you much, so that should be alright. ^_^
"convertmsg": "Dazzle! ~Target~ has been cast a spell on by the Templar Priestess, making them a ~New~!", I'm still going to point out that if reads VERY awkwardly, even if its grammatically correct (is it even correct?). "convertmsg": "Dazzle! ~Target~ had a spell cast on them by the Templar Priestess, turning them into a ~New~!", sounds much more... "correct"
I like how this new Castle is. Just played a 10 players game as Mage Knight where my inspections decided the game. Or course, being a small game, I probably lucked at surviving there, but I think this is the way for the theme. However, a suggestion: With the silent vote, I think this theme could use a customized "lynchmsg" with ~Count~ so players can see how many votes the lynched player got and plan their next moves based on that.
Its correct but a tad clunky. Will patch it up soon, I suppose. To be honest, the first night and day are still fairly random (though far less so, I think). If you survive, that's when the real strategy kicks in. Then again, that goes for like 99% of mafia themes - it is just more prominent here. Your suggestion is great, though. When I roll out the next update (might not be for a bit, internet access will be limited these next few weeks) I'll be sure to include it.
(16:37:20) ±Kill: Li Q. Assir (Gale-Blade Samurai) died! (16:37:20) ±Kill: KyuremHunter (Blazing Dragon Monarch) died! (16:37:20) ±Kill: Breadquanda (Radiant Paladin Knight) died! woah MDA OP
Another error: "convertmsg": "Dazzle! A helpless ~Old~ has been cast a spell on by the Templar Priestess, making them a ~New~!", This convertmsg was found under the Dragon Enchantress role. Obviously a bad copy/paste.
That MDA, while exceptionally good at sniping strong roles, will basically never happen. It's the equivalent of Godfather sniping Bodyguard and Vigilante and saying that GF is broke.
Missed the update, did I? I can't say I've ever disliked this theme, and the Priestess thing is just gimmicky enough to work, and fixes any problems I had with the useless night phases. I love it. Approved [12] (too late, but screw the rules)
Spoiler (18:45:58) ±Game: Your target (MewtwoHidden) was cursed! (18:45:59) ±Game: Dazzle! A helpless Holy Paladin has been cast a spell on by the Dragon Enchantress, making them a Squire! (18:45:59) ±Game: You've been sent back in time! [/HIDE] As the dragon enchantress i got the message saying i got sent back in time while the person i enchanted should have gotten it.
Spoiler (21:15:09) You can kill now using /kill [name] : (21:15:09) *************************************************************************************** (21:15:09) GreenWater10: no (21:15:10) ±Game: That person is gone, you can't kill them! <- trying to kill GreenWater10, the Invulerable Dragon (21:15:10) drkillerwrmIlie.: is there an inspec role in this heme? (21:15:14) ±Game: That person is gone, you can't kill them! <- trying to kill one more time GreenWater10, the Invulerable Dragon (21:15:15) *************************************************************************************** (21:15:15) ±Game: A javelin flies out of nowhere and pierces jeve stobs's chest, an instant death. (21:15:15) ±Kill: jeve stobs (Dragon Enchantress) died! (21:15:15) *************************************************************************************** (21:15:15) GreenWater10: probably (21:15:18) EarlS: paladins you need to pm (21:15:20) *************************************************************************************** (21:15:20) ±Game: A javelin flies out of nowhere and pierces Mogent's chest, an instant death. <- Killing someone else (21:15:20) ±Kill: Mogent (Radiant Paladin Knight) died! (21:15:20) *************************************************************************************** [...] (21:16:50) ±Game: The Phantom Knight's shadows have decayed, leaving him exposed to death! (21:16:50) ±Game: The Mist Dragon's fog cover has faded, leaving him exposed to death! (21:16:50) No one died! : (21:16:50) *************************************************************************************** (21:16:50) Current Roles: Exposed Mist Dragon, Exposed Phantom Knight, Flame Dragon, Holy Paladin, Holy Paladin, Holy Paladin, Mage Knight, Rocket Drake, Rune Dragon, Templar Priestess. (21:16:50) Current Players: Black Mage, Brian Scalabrine, EarlS, GreenWater10, Honey-senpai, MonkeyKing_Enma, ShadowK, crashnburn, drkillerwrmIlie., this man. (21:16:50) Time: Day 3 (21:16:50) You have 35 seconds to debate who are the bad guys! : (21:16:50) *************************************************************************************** (21:16:52) *************************************************************************************** (21:16:52) ±Game: A molten fireball swiftly strikes EarlS and only ashes remain... (21:16:52) ±Kill: EarlS (Exposed Phantom Knight) died! (21:16:52) *************************************************************************************** (21:16:54) this man: killers gonna kill (21:17:04) *************************************************************************************** (21:17:04) ±Game: A javelin flies out of nowhere and pierces GreenWater10's chest, an instant death. (21:17:04) ±Kill: GreenWater10 (Exposed Mist Dragon) died! (21:17:04) ***************************************************************************************[/HIDE] This should had been stopped at the time I tried to kill the first time... Similar to what happened on Hoenn.
So essentially you're saying that by targeting the Invulnerables your kill should be "wasted", as in a Code (text): "daykill": { "mode": { "evadeChance": 1 }} as opposed to Code (text): "daykill": "evade" So that way targeting them essentially wastes your kill and leaves the game with less kills I see where this would be advantageous to a daykiller essentially finding someone's role then killing someone else, but with Silent vote, the chance of you saying "They evaded, vote them" and having people follow you is next to nothing. However, the chance of you being able to capitalize on the information you obtained is very low in the fast paced environment of Castle, and by selecting another target you could teamkill, explode, or get countered. As for the Hoenn situation (despite this being the Castle thread), why would any somewhat good Sceptile actually kill while Ninjask is around? EDIT: Right after I submitted I realized that the evadeChance might help tone down the killfest that Castle still is, however, it's not my decision to make that change. Both situations have their own set of pros and cons.
(21:24:01) ±Game: You are a Dragon Enchantress! (21:24:01) ±Game: You're the mystic Dragon Enchantress. Using your mystic powers you can, every night, type /enchant [role] to send a player back in time. This converts Dragons to Hatchlings and Paladins to Squires. This change lasts until the end of the next night. Due to their sheer strength, you are unable to enchant the Mystic Dark Angel or the Gale-Blade Samurai. You and the Templar Priestess use the same source of magic: you can't /enchant her, either. That should be /enchant [player]
MDA with 3 votes has been winning way too much. With 3 votes and 3 nightkills, MDA basically wins 80% of the games if it survives D1. That's mostly because you need at least 3 players (2 in some situations) to outvote MDA, but in a silent vote environment, coordinating those votes by D1 is simply impossible. If MDA survives the first lynch phase, it can kill 3 players, which basically means if there was 7 or less players by that lynch phase, MDA is in a really good situation, if we consider one of those players is MDA itself, 3 of them will be nightkilled and the other 3 will have a hard time to take down MDA by themselves. To add more to it, Daykills (the best way to take out MDA) are not reliable enough due to GBA, the Invulnerable roles, Bombs and Enchantress. In my opinion, a role that wins most game simply by surviving the first day phase with other 7 players is basically game-breaking, and needs a fix urgently. Also, the errors posted in this thread were not fixed in a long time, so maybe this theme should be put for adoption?
Original theme: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=SdvNA4er Changes: MDA only has 2 night kills now. GBS gets 1 daykill per phase. Bombs now bomb nightkills too. GBS vote fixed to match help message. Votesniping enabled. We (MAs/QC) have other plans to adjust if needed. Some plans involving giving MDA/GBS some evasion, others with converts. Maybe cutting back a kill or two here and there to help curb player hemorrhaging with nightbombs enabled. Log of first game with changes: Spoiler (18:25:33) *************************************************************************************** (18:25:33) Times Up! : (18:25:33) The Roles have been Decided! : (18:25:33) ±Game: You are a Dynamite Knight! (18:25:33) ±Game: To the vanguard! You're the Dynamite Knight, self-proclaimed 'most explosive paladin' (this title is not contested by anyone). You're a new recruit and have been suitably outfit with special, ancient magics given to you by the Mage Knight! Your amazing armor won't render you invincible but it will kill anyone who defeats you! You know who the Mage Knight is due to his constant assistance. (18:25:33) ±Game: The Mage Knight is Dubz! (18:25:33) Current Roles: Blazing Dragon Monarch, Dragon Enchantress, Dynamite Knight, Flame Dragon, Flame Dragon, Gale-Blade Samurai, Holy Paladin, Holy Paladin, Mage Knight, Mystic Dark Angel, Radiant Paladin Knight, Rocket Drake, Rune Dragon, Templar Priestess. (18:25:33) Current Players: Arcturus, Ascarotte, B1azer, Dubz, Eagle Tequila, Ethanr737, Fuzzy, Le Mini Cat, MayorOfPie, Mindy, Prosper, Psylocke, SuddenDeath5, Weiss FFVII. (18:25:33) Current Team: Dynamite Knight, Holy Paladin, Holy Paladin, Mage Knight, Radiant Paladin Knight, Templar Priestess (18:25:33) Time: Night 1 (18:25:33) Make your moves, you only have 30 seconds! : (18:25:33) *************************************************************************************** (18:25:57) Weiss FFVII: MDA got nerfed (18:25:59) Ethanr737: thunderbolt (18:26:03) *************************************************************************************** (18:26:03) Times Up! : (18:26:03) ±Kill: Dubz (Mage Knight) died! (18:26:03) ±Game: You were killed during the night! (18:26:03) ±Kill: Fuzzy (Dynamite Knight) died! (18:26:03) ±Kill: Prosper (Blazing Dragon Monarch) died! (18:26:03) ±Kill: Psylocke (Templar Priestess) died! (18:26:03) ±Kill: Arcturus (Holy Paladin) died! (18:26:03) ±Kill: Ascarotte (Rocket Drake) died! (18:26:03) ±Kill: Eagle Tequila (Mystic Dark Angel) died! (18:26:03) *************************************************************************************** (18:26:03) Current Roles: Dragon Enchantress, Flame Dragon, Flame Dragon, Gale-Blade Samurai, Holy Paladin, Radiant Paladin Knight, Rune Dragon. (18:26:03) Current Players: B1azer, Ethanr737, Le Mini Cat, MayorOfPie, Mindy, SuddenDeath5, Weiss FFVII. (18:26:03) Time: Day 1 (18:26:03) You have 35 seconds to debate who are the bad guys! : (18:26:03) *************************************************************************************** (18:26:06) Paradigon left the channel. (18:26:08) Weiss FFVII: o>O (18:26:09) *************************************************************************************** (18:26:09) ±Game: A molten fireball swiftly strikes Mindy and only ashes remain... (18:26:09) ±Kill: Mindy (Holy Paladin) died! (18:26:09) *************************************************************************************** (18:26:10) Dubz logged out. (18:26:10) ~Unknown~ left the channel. (18:26:18) *************************************************************************************** (18:26:18) ±Game: A floating leaf. A serene breeze. This is all that is left of the fury of the storm, the Gale-Blade Samurai has dispatched another unworthy opponent. (18:26:18) ±Kill: MayorOfPie (Flame Dragon) died! (18:26:18) *************************************************************************************** (18:26:21) Weiss FFVII: well MDA doesnt win now ;) (18:26:24) Stylinsons joined the channel. (18:26:30) *************************************************************************************** (18:26:30) ±Game: A molten fireball swiftly strikes Le Mini Cat and only ashes remain... (18:26:30) ±Kill: Le Mini Cat (Dragon Enchantress) died! (18:26:30) *************************************************************************************** (18:26:38) *************************************************************************************** (18:26:38) Current Roles: Flame Dragon, Gale-Blade Samurai, Radiant Paladin Knight, Rune Dragon. (18:26:38) Current Players: B1azer, Ethanr737, SuddenDeath5, Weiss FFVII. (18:26:38) Time: Day 1 (18:26:38) It's time to vote someone off, type /Vote [name], you only have 30 seconds! : (18:26:38) *************************************************************************************** (18:26:47) B1azer: lol already to 4 (18:26:49) Weiss FFVII: already for votes (18:27:05) Katia left the channel. (18:27:08) *************************************************************************************** (18:27:08) Times Up! : (18:27:08) No one was voted off! : (18:27:08) *************************************************************************************** (18:27:08) Current Roles: Flame Dragon, Gale-Blade Samurai, Radiant Paladin Knight, Rune Dragon. (18:27:08) Current Players: B1azer, Ethanr737, SuddenDeath5, Weiss FFVII. (18:27:08) Time: Night 2 (18:27:08) Make your moves, you only have 30 seconds! : (18:27:08) *************************************************************************************** (18:27:30) SuddenDeath5: rune pm me (18:27:34) SuddenDeath5: flame here (18:27:38) *************************************************************************************** (18:27:38) Times Up! : (18:27:38) ±Kill: SuddenDeath5 (Flame Dragon) died! (18:27:38) ±Kill: B1azer (Gale-Blade Samurai) died! (18:27:38) *************************************************************************************** (18:27:38) Current Roles: Radiant Paladin Knight, Rune Dragon. (18:27:38) Current Players: Ethanr737, Weiss FFVII. (18:27:38) Time: Day 2 (18:27:38) You have 35 seconds to debate who are the bad guys! : (18:27:38) *************************************************************************************** (18:27:44) Weiss FFVII: :o o nice i win (18:28:05) packy left the channel. (18:28:13) *************************************************************************************** (18:28:13) Current Roles: Radiant Paladin Knight, Rune Dragon. (18:28:13) Current Players: Ethanr737, Weiss FFVII. (18:28:13) Time: Day 2 (18:28:13) It's time to vote someone off, type /Vote [name], you only have 30 seconds! : (18:28:13) *************************************************************************************** (18:28:14) Ethanr737: hmmm (18:28:17) Weiss FFVII: I think Ethanr737 is the bad guy (18:28:19) ±Game: Weiss FFVII voted! (18:28:21) sockpuppet joined the channel. (18:28:29) packy joined the channel. (18:28:30) meeps joined the channel. (18:28:43) *************************************************************************************** (18:28:43) Times Up! : (18:28:43) ±Game: Ethanr737 (Rune Dragon) was cast off the highest tower after receiving 1 votes! (18:28:43) ±Game: The Paladin Crusade (Weiss FFVII) wins! (18:28:43) *************************************************************************************** Both bombs died n1 as a multikiller's second kill, which is the reason for so many players out n1.
Not sure how this works, but Fuzzy told me to go ahead and begin to try to get this into review again if I wanted. So yeah, Re-Review/Decline/Retest [1]? Because generic killfest, silent voting just leads to no one voting except for counterrands, bomb/inspector pairs are essentially useless if everyone dies, everyone kills claimed bombs anyways.
We already went through these arguments. There are people who enjoy Castle. Strategy has been added to it. You guys are just gonna rehash the same arguments all over again and now that Deria's gone it's even easier for the ban brigade. Why can't you guys just leave what's already been proven to be good?
1. Narshen isn't gone. They are MA. Highly likely you're the one more absent from the channel. 2. The "strategy" is useless if your team is dead. The Inspectors are lucky to 1) Live past n1, 2) Live past d1, 3) Have their inspects do 1 and 2, and then 4) be able to use whatever information they gained in a clusterfuck of a vote phase. 3. Not even going to reply to "proven to be good" because that never happened. At all. Ever. Whatever we decided on / Put back into Review [2]
Oh, we're allowing approved themes to be sent back to Review now? Splendid. If one there's one theme that needs to be adjusted, it's this one. Review/Re-Test/Whatever we're calling this [3]
Yay! Whatever [4]. Narshen said this theme will be getting updated. I'm quite hopeful that the theme will... be... not even completely sure what the word is. My personal stance on Castle is that it is a theme that is chaos with no use of strategy beyond "I am on your team, please believe me and do not kill me." Now, I can personally think of a couple things to mediate the insp/convert roles. One of these roles is decent, the other one is pointless in this setup. I also believe that a single chaotic theme is acceptable for the sake of being chaotic. People might prefer a change of pace and I don't mind that at all. I know the theme works for what it is, but the quality of the theme itself isn't as high as I'd like it to be. Must promote higher grade levels of gameplay as well as themes that suit more people.
As much as I agree that Castle needs a revamp, I can't agree with the way this voting/re-approval process is being held. There's still no guideline to define how a theme can be removed/sent back to Review, so this kind of process seems highly arbitrary until such guidelines are up.
There's no review system that puts this back. I like Fuzzy, but he's blatantly subverted rules because he dislikes the theme.