Final Fantasy (FF)

Discussion in 'Active Themes' started by Narshen, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

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    DKC was removed from VCLR. Also, Tidus has a vote of 0, so it would only be Tifa + Aerith, or Tifa + Tidus.

    I was never really fond of roles with 0 votes and like no commands, the Aerith, the Fluttershy, etc.


    The problem with Judge and Yuna is, there are many combos that would allow for a tie. Tifa with anyone that has a vote of 1 would tie with Judge Gabranth. Yunalesca should outspeed Tifa and would be able to break ties eventually. So it really just looks like Judge Gabranth has a bit of an issue with ties now.
     
  2. Roy Mustang

    Roy Mustang HOMOSEXUAL UNICORN

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    Kefka's help text should reflect his ability to avoid hax and to find kuja. Either that or just give them startup reveal.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2013
  3. Roild

    Roild Member

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    Make all 2 votes into 1.5 in small, 2.5 in larger, make 0 votes 0.5, or add some voteshields to some. Solution is set in stone to make things solid.

    Also, how about slight variable votes? [1.5, 2, 2, 2, 2.5] --- chance to break ties less or up. As such, it's just about a coin flip (or die roll) who would win a tie break. While unfair, it is the closest to fair to break ties in my eyes. This is the best option for the sake of late-game tiebreaking.
     
  4. Yttrium

    Yttrium Well-Known Member Developer Developer

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    I think it is unfair how Ultimecia can't touch Sephiroth in a 1v1 situation now that Seph is immune to poison and has a -3 voteshield.
     
  5. Roild

    Roild Member

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    Seph either doesn't need the poison or lower voteshield to -2.
     
  6. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

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    Well, Ulti is getting a buff too, but for now I could adjust it.
     
  7. Sky Sentinel

    Sky Sentinel You see?

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    what buff did he get? i saw no change, ulti's still pretty much the weakest solo role in all of mafia. he's basically a killer with 2 extra votes, doesnt help much. you could achieve the same effect by giving him two really slow piercing kills a night after the first and he'd still have the same amount of kills, same vulnerability to PL, same number of ways to die (actually he'd be better off, lol). He really can't do much. cecil nullifies his vote, kuja outvotes by so much, yuna can distract/tie with a partner/kill him, judge can almost nullify his vote, and double poison's really not worth anything on a solo role in a theme where there are like 6 kills and three distractors like wtf
     
  8. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    Ultimecia is a Woman.

    Also, it's far from being weak. Having double poison in a theme without safeguards is quite strong. It's easier to PL frame or trick PLs when you use poison, and +4 votes in late game is annoying to beat.
    That is, at least for the classical version of the role, I'm not sure about recent updates.
     
  9. Sky Sentinel

    Sky Sentinel You see?

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    MY LIFE IS A LIE




    i thought it was plus 3, and i mean on paper it should be strong but in reality, how often does she win?
     
  10. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    I remember seeing Ultimecia winning more often than Sephiroth, almost at the same rate as Solidor/Sin (of course, considering games where Ultimecia is in).
     
  11. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    Gotta agree with Rice here. Once Ultimecia gets to late-game, the poisons rack up, she votes off someone she hasn't poisoned, and from 8 players including Ultimecia she can't be voted off the next day. It stacks up so fast.
     
  12. Sky Sentinel

    Sky Sentinel You see?

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    I've seen her win maybe 5 times out of the like hundreds of FF games i've played and I almost never actually see her live more than a few days
     
  13. Roild

    Roild Member

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    People say Ulti is OP. It's like a godfather role capable of spreading out and using poison more efficiently than just killing. Any buff is uneeded, at most distract ignore or something. He wins lots of games and just needs to make it late-game (as any solo role would need to).
     
  14. Sky Sentinel

    Sky Sentinel You see?

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    I was thinking ignore distract, because most solo roles ignore distractors/kill distractors (and I mean why wouldn't they, the game would be ruined for them if they were PL stalled, at least other factions have teammates)
     
  15. Kurapika

    Kurapika Born to be a Troll

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    Personally, I don't like Sephitoth having a voteshield, especially a voteshield "higher" than -1... Sephiroth is pretty much strong enough to win alone.
    Ultimecia is pretty strong, too, especially if it has a mayor vote of like +4. Most roles that rely on poisoning need to be strong during the vote phase!
    FF is one of those themes that are known, and liked, for their simplicity... Don't change them a lot... D: (actually, FF is one of my least favorite themes, I won't mind if it gets less popular, hehehehe.)
    But that's just my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2013
  16. Roild

    Roild Member

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    THe seph -3 is just for larger games. That said, -3 is a bit high too. Not excessively I guess. It isn't too bad. It should go up in spawn imo, but that's about it. all works.
     
  17. Hopkirk

    Hopkirk +C

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    (19:43:33) ***************************************************************************************
    (19:43:33) ±Current Roles: Auron, Dark Knight Cecil, Garland, Garland, Tifa.
    (19:43:33) ±Current Players: Hopkirk, Konoha Roll, Not Kefka, Rand, WuvvieHeart654.
    (19:43:33) ±Current Team: Garland, Garland
    (19:43:33) ±Time: Day 2
    (19:43:33) It's time to vote someone off, type /Vote [name], you only have 30 seconds! :
    (19:43:33) ***************************************************************************************
    (19:43:35) Konoha Roll: vote Rand
    (19:43:37) ±Game: Rand voted for Hopkirk!
    (19:43:39) ±Game: Hopkirk voted for Rand!
    (19:43:40) WuvvieHeart654: NOOOO
    (19:43:40) ±Game: Not Kefka voted for Rand!
    (19:43:41) Rand: Hopkirk and Not Kefka
    (19:43:44) Rand: those are your guys
    (19:43:45) ±Game: WuvvieHeart654 voted for Hopkirk!
    (19:43:47) ±Game: Konoha Roll voted for Hopkirk!
    (19:43:47) WuvvieHeart654: Rnd was bg
    (19:43:47) ***************************************************************************************
    (19:43:47) Times Up! :
    (19:43:47) ±Game: Rand (Auron) has been removed from the game!
    (19:43:47) ±Game: 'Hahahaha! Know your place!' The power of good was no match for Garland (Not Kefka and Hopkirk)!
    (19:43:47) ±Game: The Heroes (WuvvieHeart654 and Konoha Roll) lose!
    (19:43:47) ***************************************************************************************

    Dark knight Cecil should be on vcl. I was confirmed garland there so we should have lost.
     
  18. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/sho...l-Fantasy-(FF)&p=217926&viewfull=1#post217926
     
  19. Hopkirk

    Hopkirk +C

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    That situation is nothing like this one as there was a pl here and the village could outvote the mafia.

    The two Garlands were very obvious there so would have been pld. Dkc could convert to paladin. The village would then lynch both garlands.

    Village could have won that game but no Dkc on Vcl meant they were end gamed when they shouldn't have been (i was claiming auron here btw).
     
  20. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    Actually, Garland could easily survive and stall the game forever.

    Garland + Garland vs Tifa + Dark Knight Cecil

    Garland 1 votes Tifa
    Tifa votes Garland 1
    Dark Knight Cecil votes Tifa
    Garland 2 votes Cecil

    Votes received:
    Garland 1: 1
    Tifa: 0 (-1)
    Garland 2: 0
    Dark Knight Cecil: 1

    That means a tie, and that is the reason roles with negative votes shouldn't be VCLR. Yeah, Cecil could convert, but at that point he didn't, so at that specific moment they had no way to win. The script is not made to predict the future, so arguing that the game should continue because Cecil could convert is the same as arguing that someone shouldn't win a game if they are poisoned because they will die next night.
     
  21. Hopkirk

    Hopkirk +C

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    Dark knight cecil can convert to paladin cecil.

    Tifa distracts garland.
    Dkc converts.
    Paladin cecil+tifa=3 votes
    Garland+Garland=2 votes
    One garland is removed from the game.
    Repeat to win.

    They would win the next night if dkc was on vcl. Instead they lost.
     
  22. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    Paladin Cecil should be in VCLR, and I'm quite sure he's there. Dark Knight Cecil, on the other hand, shouldn't. It was Cecil's fault for not converting earlier. Also, as I said before:
    Any theme with poison allow situations like Poisoned Ganondorf vs Luigi. If the game continued, it would be a tie, but the game ends right there even if Ganondorf is going to die.
    If DKC is put in VCLR, then even roles like Body's Stem Cell, RO's Novice and MP's New Player should be too.

    What I mean is: I know there are situations where DKC being in VCLR could change the game's result, but for each of those situations, there will be 15 others that will end as a stalemate requiring an MA to /end the game. It's simply not worth the trouble.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2013
  23. Cobalt

    Cobalt Embrace the Cold

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    Maybe add /tt for Garland? Since they already know each other, easier than PMing.
     
  24. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    Can you shorten the prio list? I'm going to leave colored, bolded spots for each issue I see.

    Priority List for theme FF:
    [1] Dark Knight Cecil (Purify)
    [1] Paladin Cecil (Shadow)
    [2] Yunalesca (Distract)
    [3] Tifa (Distract)
    [4] Tidus (Distract)
    [5] Kefka (Kill)
    [6] Dark Knight Cecil (Protect)
    [6] Paladin Cecil (Protect)
    -Combine into one, reading as Cecil (Protect). It's the same thing so...

    [7] Judge Gabranth (Protect)
    [8] Auron (Protect)
    [10] Judge Zargabaath (Kill)
    [11] Larsa Solidor (Kill)
    [11] Judge Gabranth (Kill)
    [11] Vayne Solidor (Kill)
    -Shorten into The House Solidor

    [12] Jecht (Kill)
    [12] Anima (Poison)
    [12] Anima (Kill)
    [12] Yunalesca (Kill)
    [12] Seymour (Kill)
    -Shorten into The Sin

    [15] Garland (Kill)
    [15] Ultimecia (Poison)
    [19] Lightning (Kill)
    [20] Sephiroth (Kill)
    [20] Sephiroth (Kill)
    -Make one slot, not two

    [30] Locke (Inspect)
    [30] Chocobo Rider (Track)
    [30] Vayne Solidor (Inspect)
    [30] Cactuar (Inspect)
     
  25. Solace

    Solace Member

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    There is no way to combine individual roles' priority entries into one. The prio list is generated for each command for each role and is done so by the server's script, not the theme's. We only have the option to hide repeated entries. The only one of those that is unneeded is the repeated Sephiroth kill.
     
  26. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    You can do as I have in my themes and hide the actual roles' priority, then make a new role with the desired name and actions just to hold the priority. Try to /priority Kirby, and you will see Dedede's Mafia and Meta Knight's Army has their /kill combined in a single entry each.
     
  27. Scatterbrain

    Scatterbrain You only live once*

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    You can do this actually. Just create a role called House Solidor, have it's kill action, etc. but the trick is you have to put the "hide": true boolean in the action for it to not show up.

    For reference themes like Ember and Kirby do this, and I had suggested this a while ago to Fuzzy or Deria but I guess they never got to it :x

    Edit: SHIT KIRBY YOU NINJA
     
  28. Solace

    Solace Member

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    Oh right, yeah; that works. I've only ever needed one decoy role (see the Fail Taco in Geass) so I don't think of using them. :O
    That still seems unnecessary though because seeing the side name just forces someone to use /sides thus cluttering up their chat and wasting valuable time when they could just see the name of the role in the list. :/
     
  29. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    Something will end cluttered anyway. IMO, this format is better because if a player doesn't know the sides for a theme, it's less likely they will need/bother with priorities.

    Edit: If you still think that's no good, another solution is to have that entry as "Larsa Solidor/Vayne Solidor/Judge Gabranth" instead of "House Solidor" at /priority.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2014
  30. Scatterbrain

    Scatterbrain You only live once*

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    /Sides doesn't clutter too much, considering it doesn't have as much text or widespread spacing as compared to /roles. Besides you can always hide roles (or hide them from their sides with "hide": "side").
     
  31. Hopkirk

    Hopkirk +C

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    I'd like to suggest just giving Tifa+Auron role reveal at the start of the game as, on Android, i hear it's very difficult to spam the commands to get haxed.
     
  32. Sky Sentinel

    Sky Sentinel You see?

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    You know, to be honest, that might be ideal. Spamming causes flood of course and you can lose track of the chat or something. Plus any two good players will find each other anyway, and those that don't know immediately will know when they hear people yelling "TIFA AND AURON SPAM". Also you can't go overactive from role reveal
     
  33. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    May I suggest a new setup for non-peak? 5-6 player setups with the Garland/Kefka setup has very little variance and even two of the village roles are auto-connected. If even a single village role dies n1 (and they should, since Kefka hops bg), then they cannot outvote. However, if any xfire happens at all, the mafia stand little chance. Everything is decided by a random kill night 1. I think this can be improved.

    I would like to recommend making a non-peak game out of Locke, Cactuar, and Kefka. A setup such as

    List 1 (5~6 players):
    1. Locke (locke
    2. Cactuar (cactus)
    3. Moogle (moogle)
    4. Kefka (kefka)
    5. Moogle (moogle)
    6. Cactuar (cactuar)

    would be highly potent. While not unlike Dethy, it would incorporate the flavor of FF into a possible non-peak scenario. Locke can only be sure someone's clean if they are a Moogle, and usually this will mean they are Locke and not Cactuar (but not always!). Kefka will be able to hide as long as there are Cactuar about, since Locke sees them as Kefka and Locke must deal with the doubt of being Kefka as long as they exist.

    tl;dr: Kefka/Locke/Cactuar would make a cool non-peak for FF theme. 7+ can resume the traditional Tifa/Auron/Locke/Garland/Kefka setup.

    And @above, I wouldn't be against giving Auron/Tifa each other on startup. The excuse to spam isn't really necessary. Even having /tt would make life considerably easier.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2014
  34. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    Going to agree with the above statements (the nonpeak looks solid and autoconnection in lieu of old FE, Pit/Palutena, and Naruto/Sasuke would be more beneficial for Auron/Tifa) along with, once again, suggesting that the priority list gets slightly decluttered as I mentioned in an earlier post.
     
  35. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

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    Well, I'm reviving (at least in part) the FF revamp to refresh the theme. I'm just going to list out all the ideas from that project. It's mainly focusing on getting more representation from games. It will need some further refining to make the transition easier, so I will be asking for ONE (or maybe TWO) people who are GOOD at themes to be assisting in the work to make sure its not just what I want.

    Reasons for the revamp:
    • Extends theme above 30 players with unique roles.
    • Heroes have 4 distracts in larger games. Four.
    • Flavor makes no sense in some areas (I still don't know why the fuck Cactuar thinks he is Locke. Sin side was way too restrictive. Larsa wasn't really a bad guy)
    • Heroes have won 8/10 games over 17 players so far this month, took 6/8 games at 15 players (Quite village sided at this point. 14/18 games over 15p)
    • Yuna and Gabranth should have never gotten to share the kill as it just powers up the village when they have 4 distracts in their arsenal (maybe they can pick it up after their team is wiped, but that just means they did a bad job supporting their team usually!)
    • Seph and Ulti were kinda bad (Seph revamp was only in 27+ games)
    • Did I mention Heroes get 4 distracts in larger games?
    • No more Sinful puns (Awaiting everyone to objecht to this line particularly)
    • Because I said so
    • Because Tidus and Tifa exist creating 4 distracts for village. Auron serves as an easy connector too.

    Game representation (bolded is newly represented)
    1= Garland
    2= -
    3= -
    4=Cecil
    5=Bartz + Boco
    6= Locke, Kefka
    7= Sephiroth, Jenova, Weiss (CC/DoC), Genesis (CC/DoC), Professor Hojo (7, BC, CC, DoC), Cloud
    8= Squall
    9= Kuja, Zidane
    10= Yuna
    10-2= -
    11= -
    12= Gabranth, Vayne, Cid, Venat, Zargabaath
    13= Lightning
    13-2= Caius
    13-3= -
    14= -
    15= Noctis
    Type-o= Ace

    Tactics= -
    Dissidia= Chaos
    Crystal Chronicles= Mog


    Village:
    -Moogles: are still villager
    -Locke: is still inspector.
    -Zidane: is now insane inspector. It's going to jumble things a bit, but it actually makes sense.
    -Squall: is now vigilante.
    -Lightning: is now a JOAT (Ravager, Commando, Medic related moves)
    -Bartz: is now stalker (renaming Chocobo Rider)
    -Boco: (The Chocobo) is a special Villager that increases Bartz's vote if stalked, otherwise nothing special
    -Ace: (FF Type-0) is a variable vote mayor.
    -Mog: is going to be a (mass)safeguarder
    -Noctis: is now the Bodyguard. He'll get hax on kill, but never learn the name of the killer.
    -Cecil: remains the same
    -Yuna: will take the place of Tifa.

    Small Game Mafia:
    -Garland: remain the same (kill)

    Kefka+Kuja Mafia:
    These changes are "all or nothing" there is no middle ground, either they both get changed or neither does.
    -Kefka: On Kuja Death, turns to God Form Kefka and gets some buff related to vote, votebombing, or something
    -Kuja: On Kefka Death, turns to Trance Kuja and gets a one-shot kill

    House Solidor -> Renamed to Archadian Empire (?):
    -Judge Gabranth: can no longer share in the kill, but still has protect and 2 vote
    -Vayne: stays the same (Kill + Inspect)
    -Judge Zargabaath: should be same, kill + ignore protect, stalk, hax
    -Dr. Cid: (Evil Cids are best Cids)- Shared kill, perhaps one-shot lynch proof
    -Venat: on death powers up team (Gabranth gets SG added, Vayne gets Stalk, Cid gets 1 shot bullet proof, Zarga ignores poison). If entire team dies before him, gets day-inspect and ignores all kills

    SOLDIER/Tsveits/Shinra/something (Rip Sin)
    **This side never really got worked on, One role will get a distract or something
    -Sephiroth: non-revealing daykill
    -Genesis: DK immunity?
    -Weiss: ???
    -Jenova: Mole
    -Hojo: Poisoner


    **This role barely got worked on
    Chaos (Solo): Slowly gains abilities every night? First a kill with some pierce chance?, then voteshield?, then daykill?, finally becomes Feral Chaos with 100% pierce kill

    **This role barely got worked on
    Caius (Solo)- Kill is instant-kill poison (Timetravel for flavor). Revenges Exposes (non-revealing), Immune or Revenges some other actions (Especially Lightning stuff?)

    Blah blah, who wants to help? Anyone got ideas or tweaks to the recovered plan?
     
  36. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    Best way to ruin a theme's popularity is to nerf village. Just look at old FE! Theme is better now but has less plays cause "waaah bring back overpowered role x and y".

    At least keep the Locke/Zidane hax interaction, the hax between village roles is a feature of this theme and usually Narshen themes in general. I'm fine with village changes besides maybe the variable vote mayor because we already have enough Cecils throwing by converting/not converting. Yuna replacing Tifa is going to screw people over cause they'll think it's short for Yunalesca, but they'll adapt. rip Auron

    Kefka and Kuja shouldn't be touched, if you're going to remove Kefka's inspect near-immunity that the insane Cactuar inspect gives, then just buff him.

    No idea why you think Seph and Ulti are weak, Ulti is super strong late game and all Seph really needs is another partner in Genesis/Jenova

    Mog will be really weak unless there's a lot of poisons!!

    Basically, the less changes the better, but I'm definitely fine updating the roles to the new material and having Soldier > SIN with Chaos being the 2nd lone role taking Seph's place
     
  37. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

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    Remember, that was just the entire proposed changelog, rewritten so it didn't have 8 different useless comments on each line. Obviously we don't have to do it all, but some new things wouldn't be bad.
     
  38. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    PO Trainer Name:
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    Most important thing to keep in mind: Don't do all the planned changes at once. Most of the classic themes that managed to push some modifications without hurting its popularity did so by introducing them slowly.

    Venat sounds too complicated. I suggest not using it at all.

    I like Kefkuja buff, but they need to be slightly weaker buffs. They are already a major threat during late game, giving them more power would make them actually OP.

    I agree with Windblown about keeping some of the hax. Even if slightly different or with restrictions, but one of the things I always liked in FF was how village was able to connect silently in different groups (Auron/Cecil/Tifa/Tidus, Locke/Lightning/Zidane/Cactuar, etc). Of course, it would be better if those groups were smaller, but with more groups around.

    Lastly, I'm all in for removing Tidus. One of the most stupid roles in Mafia, since it's more likely to hurt its team than the enemies, and it's unlikely to even clean people of Kefka/Sephiroth. In fact, Tidus makes PL cleaning harder for Tifa too.
     
  39. Stocke

    Stocke Wat is dis I don't even

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    I don't mind helping with the stuff, considering I was taking part on it when the idea to update the theme first began. I coded some of the villanous roles back in the day and didn't make any more (mainly those with **This role barely got worked on) because they didn't have any approval for their abilities, just suggestions people threw up that never got any comment. If those get accepted I can get to work on it, and even try to think more stuff for games with no representation yet (like II, I made a comment about adding Emperor Palamecia to the Kefkuja team on large games with inspect revenge, for example).

    So yeah, as long as I get approval on the proposals you got your man for the job.

    EDIT: "but that just means they did a bad job supporting their team usually!"

    I don't agree with that. 2 votes can do little when a bandwagon starts, and trying to send it in other direction just makes you reveal yourself. Protect or distract wouldn't help against Kefka killing either. In any case this is just like the whole convo that spawned for Kakuna all over again that ended with no clear resolution AFAIK, so not gonna comment more.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2014
  40. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

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    One thing that I do wish to change is at least the connection rate between "Auron" and "Tifa." Lower rate = people have to spam, leading to overactives, or people not being able to due it cause android or new player.

    Kefka and Kuja should be linked at least because again, some people aren't capable of connecting as fast and its hard to judge if the team is balanced or not when you throw in that completely random factor.

    And Judge and Yuna getting the shared kill actually hurt the team. You PL one of them and you can shut down the entire team. It should have been more of a last-man standing buff to not hurt the team.


    Anyway things that I personally want to change first:

    0. Fix Kefkuja + Auron/Tifa connections (Not really a revamp thing, more of a needed thing)
    1. Flat out remove Tidus for now.
    2. Replace Sephiroth with Chaos (Caius needs more changes to support the original plan)
    3. Replace Sin with 4/5 of Seph's Crew (Would be keeping Seph, but no longer solo)
    4. Minor House Solidor changes (Swap Larsa for Dr Cid, Gabranth loses team kill until last man standing)

    This can help start to address the issues of Village winning quite a lot in large games because Seph's Crew can be adjusted to help counter Village more than Sin could. The only real major changes are Sin gets ripped to give Seph a team, then a new solo shows up.

    Possibly Wave 2 of changes:
    1. Cactuar reflavor
    2. Squall as Vigi, Lightning as JOAT
    3. Expand Arcadian and Seph's Crew to 5 members (would only be at 4 from wave 1)
    4. Maybe FF15 will be released by then (lmfao yeah right) and Noctis could make an appearance