i do not see the fact that no one is opposing this proposition as a sign that something is "fucking wrong" (that may be one of the most illogical things i've read here...), i think of it more as a sign that "everyone agrees that this should be banned so it is obvious what course of action should be taken concerning this matter." ingrain+baton pass smeargle was already suspect tested and banned VERY RECENTLY. granted it wasn't at PO's hands, but every apparently broken strategy or pokemon or other such problem that gets retroactively pointed out shouldn't be looked at as another opportunity to prove to yourselves that you are your own community. there seems to be an obsession with wasting time around here. most of the people posting in this thread are members shared by smogon's AND PO's adv communities, and some (such as myself) have already gone through the suspect testing process and laddered to gain the opportunity to vote on this matter. you cannot prove that something like this is broken with logs, you can only prove it with reasoning derived from knowledge and experience, which most of the players posting in favor of this ban clearly are steeped in. you know that they have such qualities, so why make them waste time proving something that you already know? furthermore, why make them prove ingrain smeargle is broken when THEY already know it, and it's their metagame? it's all already been discussed. so why hesitate? there's not going to be another suspect test. if the dp salamence retest (a sore subject :<) proved anything it's that old gen suspect REtests are virtually nothing but wastes of time. most experienced players find them irritating and trivial, as they impatiently await the seemingly inevitable reban of salamence or what have you. that's why the retest was so inactive and there were so few voters. most ladderers do not want to use/prepare for something that they consider broken, and for all intents and purposes, already banned. that's why, even if the test were active, it would be invalid. actually, most players do not want to sit around employing a broken, one sided, masturbatory, uncompetitive strategy like full bp in order to rack up points on a brink-of-death ladder anyway, but unfortunately some players do! (that's right, make no mistake about it, i am insinuating that these "suspect threads" and unnecessary demands for "proof" are quite as masturbatory as bp is itself). but, i'm almost more enthused to sit around with my thumb up my ass while i endure another wave of inevitable losses to bp teams than i am to painstakingly beat another dead horse on the old gen forums. now, the fact that this bp test was so recent also makes the "tradition" and "you should know better" arguments a bit less applicable, but this goes for pretty much every single gripe that has been brought up in these forums. if someone opens a thread like "let's allow ohkos in rby" it does not deserve any entertainment, i don't care who it is that opens it. similarly, if someone who clearly knows how the metagame is meant to be played points out that it is not being played properly, or a rule is missing or incorrect, the problem should be rectified. there shouldn't be a required song and dance number every single time a discrepancy is pointed out. the player base for the old metagames shouldn't have to constantly struggle to push the metagames that they clearly know so well into a state of static normalcy, when they never should have deviated from that state of normalcy in the first place. every old metagame is meant to be played with freeze clause, and always has been played that way. dppt ou is supposed to be played without salamence, and salamence certainly shouldn't get considered for unbanning before latias, although no changes should be considered for a static metagame at all. adv nu is meant to be played without nfe pokemon because not only is that always how it was played, but nfe pokemon weren't accounted for when the nu cutoff was decided upon and the power and usage of certain nfes would clearly affect such a thing as tiering. nfes in uu and nu was a dp era invention! these things aren't even debatable. these aren't anyone's opinions, they are historical, they are facts, and they were largely democratically decided. the banning of ingrain + baton pass smeargle was a decision made by knowledgeable adv players. which competitive pokemon community facilitated the vote is not of importance, because it's the players that decide how the game is played, not the auth, and the decision was made so recently that the players that made the decision are almost all still playing both here and on smogon. this whole process is asinine. the metagames belong to the people who play them, so if multiple well-known, experienced players say "this metagame is not being played in accordance with a certain standard rule or rule-set. this is not how it is supposed to be" you need do nothing more than comply. if these metagames were new, developing, shifting metagames, it would be different. in fact, you have bw to worry about, so save your effort and worry about the metagame that still hasn't reached any sort of stasis. adv has, and it's a waste of time to fumble about wondering what the appropriate rules are when the players who play the damned game are already well aware of them. that's why no one is debating the matter, every experienced adv player already knows the rules. ingrain smeargle isn't a suspect, it's a convicted felon. because you let it break out of jail doesn't mean it needs a retrial.
That whole post covered everything I've been struggling to articulate. I quoted the last sentence because I feel that it translates not only to this topic, but the Freeze Clause topics too. Its completely unnecessary to retest this, we could simply just dig up the pertaining smogon thread and show you it needs banning if you feel it is absolutely required. Asking us for evidence when it already exists and has been used before to make a decision is just wasting time.
I was kinda hoping someone would provide a link to the thread or show some of the evidence from Smogon so that I wouldn't have to spend 4 hours going through it all myself on my only day off this week ¬_¬ shrap, there wasn't any need to post all that. Just linking me to the threads on Smogon would have sufficed. My statement of it being wrong that there is no opposition was based on there being no supporting evidence for the ban - evidence that I have since seen on Smogon. Whilst my personal preference is to not clause anything at all, I won't object to this happening at all. Considering I was pretty much the only potential block to this happening, this will likely be implemented soon.
There is discussion among staff that banning Ingrain altogether in Adv could be an option. Having looked through a lot of stuff in Adv and seen a fair bit of it played, it does seem like Ingrain is completely unused in any tier. Feel free to correct me. This option is because it avoids complex banning/clausing when our scripters etc already have a lot on their hands. Do people object to it being banned? (Doesn't mean it will definitely be banned, is just an option)
I'm not averse to this, Ingrain has absolutely no use outside of Smeargle and if its less hassle to just program in the move ban then why not?. I see no issue, the move will not be missed by anything else at all.
@oak i did not mean to seem like i was attacking you. this is more a response to the way the old metagames generally get treated than to what you've said in this thread, i just happened to be responding to that as well. i was simply finally able to articulate my feelings on something that has been irking me for quite some time and i felt that it would also be useful to others who have been thinking along the same lines. generally speaking i consider you among the most sensible and respectable of the auth around here, i just happen to disagree with something you said this time. but again, didn't mean to make it seem like all that was aimed at you. if you did want to see some stuff from the smogon thread, you could've asked :x however upon reading the thread i found it was mostly just more theorymon, some of it not too well founded, and a lot of it was said under the impression that there was going to be a much more severe limitation placed on baton pass teams than just ingrain smeargle's ban. the proof is in the suspect vote as far as i am concerned. here's the pre-test discussion thread (i think it's actually 2 threads that were combined, which is why i couldn't find ipl's thread when i searched for it): http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86066&page=5 here's the vote: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102353
Huh. Could have sworn it did. I'll have to look that up now. EDIT: Oak sucks. I was wrong. Haze Weezing then lol
Seems pointless to me when you can just ban Ingrain Smeargle. I don't view Pokemon + move as "complex". How is it different than Pokemon + ability (Blaziken with Speed Boost)? Not to open a new can of worms but I really think "complex bans" as they're called should be utilized more often. Nonetheless, if the choices are only- 1. Leave Ingrain Smeagle legal. 2. Ban Ingrain outright. While I don't think either is the perfect solution I'd obviously opt for the second option.
Yeah, there's absolutely no sense in making anyone waste any time in implementing smeargle+ingrain when nothing else uses it. Just banning the move doesn't have to be coded or scripted.
I kinda feel uncomfortable about this. I mean, the reasoning behind doing the blanket ban of Ingrain when only Ingrain Smeargle is a problem is "because it's easier to implement". I have to wonder if the precedent set by this would be to apply minimal effort to older gens moving forward.
There's a difference between applying minimal effort when something is a big deal(ie affecting a large number of pokemon) and doing so when something that has this little effect on anything else other than one pokemon. There really are better, simulator based things that could be done besides wasting time on this anyway, when a much simpler, faster way to do it is available.
I understand the concern about the mindset that simply banning ingrain encourages but I just genuinely think it does not matter in this case. And if its easier for the staff then why the hell not.
For the exact reason you were getting at in the first sentence- because if it happens here people will ask why it cannot happen in other instances and complain about it being unfair and all that other crap.
We're perfectly capable of denying people "fixes" to things anyway, even if we happened to set a precedent that "justifies" it within that generation due to banning one thing a certain way or another. The whole idea of the slippery slope or any similar argument is quite unfounded anyway, and depends on the fact that we can only act based on set precedents - which is decidedly untrue.
if banning ingrain is easier then ban that. i rather have ingrain smeargle just banned though? i've been thinking about banning mr.mime. Am i getting a little to greedy? shrap's post deserves 5 stars yeah banning mime is greedy
Mr. Mime is not broken by any means. Why ban it? Banning Ingrain on Smeargle is just a complex ban. Banning Ingrain outright is easier + nothing will change.
http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/showthread.php?15733-Ingrain-ADV-vote-(Smeargle) Just letting you guys know.
i don't understand why the people who regularly play adv can't v0te but im happy to see that this shit is leaving soon
The voting is only for people who have access. Which I believe there is a guide on somewhere, but I'm not sure if it has been included in user viewing yet.
Yeah hopefully voting won't take place there anymore, unless it can be set up in a way where people without posting rights can at least vote in polls. About the posting rights we're trying to iron out who gets access, still.
If you do still want to vote in the poll, even though ingrain was banned before it was made(withholding reasoning since long story), just PM me saying "yes" or "no" with the PM titled ingrain vote or something. Also, the guidelines of that forum clearly state that if you want your post represented, simply PM a mod/tier leader and they'll post for you.