Baton Pass Chains are such am anticompetitive and degenerate archetype that really shouldn't exist in ADV. The only coutner is having Perish Song but being forced to run Perish Song on all your teams to ensure that you're not getting swept by Mr.Mime or some other abstract threat is absurd. We play ADV because we love it, because it's a the best tier. Unfortunately, there are people using a nearly unbeatable archetype that relies on no skill. Banning Ingrain Smeargle would make Baton Pass a lot more bearable as at least there will be more options to defeat dreaded Baton Pass chains.
"Ban Ingrain!" "Ban Iron Head!" "Ban anything that's dangerous whatsoever!" I appreciate your anger at being swept by BP but asking to just ban a move when it's not like a bug is just outrageous. If that was the case we should probably ban Baton Pass as well, da? Sorry, but it's not happening anytime soon.
I believe it was banned from the Smogon ladder at one time, so it's not as if it's impossible to ban. It is mad annoying.
I agree with you Sir, Baton Pass is not competitive and is very cheap. Even both Adv OU Gym leaders had clauses that stopped Smeargle having Ingrain and BP or BP as a whole, which further indicates that it doesn't require much skill at all as you could beat players 10x better than you just cause they didn't have Perish Song for example.
But to be fair Dude, the cheapness of it is not in doubt (it's whorishly cheap) but it still can't be banned.
I agree with everyone who is pro an Ingrain ban. Baton Pass in general requires no skill at all and is just a process. I was testing a new team today and I made the mistake of not running Perish on Celebi. But instead of your normal BP team, I was PP stalled by spider web! I'll include a log of that battle(it's spectator because I forgot to click save :d). I don't see why banning it would be a problem. It will just make a cheap and noncompetitive team less "invincible"(although they can still b beat). Anyways, a ban on Ingrain Smeargle would only make ADV OU a better tier. Spoiler http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Torvus-vs-Johnidel127--2012-08-24[/HIDE]
I thought a lot of ADV people agreed on this one? Or at least something to take BP down a notch? This isn't "I got swept, it must be broken", it's a legit contentious issue. I don't know too much more about it than that, though I do know from my limited experience that Ingrain Smeargle is just an awful sight to see.
Why can't it be banned? We've banned many things that take away from the fairness of the game, Ingrain Smeargle could be one of them for Adv.
"Banning something just because you got swept by it is not going to happen." "can't be banned" so smug! yet it was officially banned about a year ago from smogon's adv ladder and all major adv tournaments and has been ever since. i'm not sure you are aware, but stupid shit like trickbanding isn't absurdly common in adv like in later gens and taunt only lasts for 2 turns and mostly slow pokemon learn it. killing things in general is also just way harder, and bp teams are made up of bulky pokemon like zapdos, celebi and vaporeon. also the reason not to ban baton pass outright is that it is much more easily counterable without ingrain to stop you from pseudohazing. with ingain, all you can do is perish song or haze (it is unrealistic to expect every team to have one of these uncommon moves), or get incredibly lucky with multiple chs. otherwise it often comes down to 50/50 guesses with things like restalk/roar zapdos trying to figure out if smeargle will spore or ingrain the first turn. if you guess wrong you lose! and you'll probably have to guess correctly more than once per match. the problem is that it's uncompetitive. but then again PO doesn't have much of a competitive ADV community...
Yeah having seen the abuse of this "strategy" in action I must say it's completely uncompetitive and when abused simply ruins the tier. I feel it's a good idea to follow suit with all the other places that have banned this from ADV.
Support. Ingrain Smeargle is perhaps the worst blemish on competitive gameplay. For absolutely no metagame knowledge at all you can easily net yourself a 6-0 victory in 20-30 turns, and opponents playing against you are playing a guessing game at best, as shrap said. Baton Pass chains by themselves are a skillless process that actually has a decent chance of success, much more than it deserves, since even without Ingrain Smeargle people just pass to Taunt/Mean Look Umbreon when they see your phazer, then subsequently pass to Taunt DDTar or Perish Song Celebi if its Cune/Pert and then gg. With Ingrain in the mix it basically makes what is otherwise widely considered the best competitive tier of all time a joke. IMO Baton Pass on the whole needs a revision (note, NOT a ban) on how it is used in the tier but for now an Ingrain ban will suffice. One step at a time.
I was about to go hard on Sov but "I ain't even mad" Everyone that somewhat actively plays ADV knows that BP chains are kind of absurd. They distract from the legitimacy of the ladder and just make the tier much worse. I don't think Baton Pass should be banned because it's not an intrinsically broken move. However, as many others have stated, Ingrain Smeargle is pretty degenerate. Since this measure seems to have zero relevant competition, can we get this thing banned and make ADV a better place?
Just to clarify what I meant in my previous post, I basically agree with this^ its a move that provides you with a strategic advantage, but so do pretty much all moves. However, Baton Pass in conjunction with a select few things can be almost as bad as Ingrain passing. That was my point, but its merely food for thought until this progresses.
I agree with Sir and meteor64 on this one. Although I wouldn't stretch to say the BP chain strategy is broken, it does nothing to improve the metagame and it needs a nerf so that it gradually becomes extinct as a strategy. The key phase when a BP team becomes nigh on unbeatable is when Smeargle Ingrains, and as such banning Ingrain Smeargle would seem the most logical thing to me. Competitive pokemon is intended to be a game of skill and luck, and a BP team can win without the requisite player skill necessary to win without such a team.
Most Ingrain Smeargle are built to specifically take defensive Zapdos's Thunderbolt anyway so you'd have to go with a less common resttalk Metagross or something.
Seeing ADV has not much ways of dealing with BP than either hitting hard or Phazing, Ingrain does seem too OP. I would definitely support a ban or at least taken down a notch
This. Johnidel talked to me on it and aboit Taunt being more nerfed, I thought it was just a rage thread.
Wasn't there a rule that Baton Pass was limited to 3 pokemon when fighting in the gym? I guess that could be implemented over Smeargle being banned with Ingrain - you never know who might want to run Smeargle Ingrain... edit: ok
Banning ingrain is infinitely more preferable and you'll be hard pressed to find anyone decent to agree with you.
Correct... It IS banned on Smogon and in most major ADV tournaments and it's not because the tournament organizers "got swept by it"...
Yes, I remember atq tourneys (like 2010 one) with that rule to limit bp chains, and it was an option when itmwas discussed in smogon, but banning ingrain smeargle is a much better solution
Are people completely incapable of running something like Perish Song Celebi or Haze Milotic, or even able to just use Choice Band Salamence, Metagross or some other hard hitting thing and keep hitting it until it gives up and dies anymore? Y'know, standard stuff to beat Baton Pass chains that aren't called Roar or Whirlwind? I fail to see the reason to ban Ingrain Smeargle at all. Can people start providing logs of it being the key factor that provides the victory for the team? At the moment, there is no solid evidence backing up claims, and the only semi-decent reason given to ban it is to be linear with other communities. Spoiler EDIT: Just to clarify, I am open to the idea of this ban, but literally no-one else is opposing it, and I feel like that's really fucking wrong. Evidence should be needed to back up any claims imo.
PSong and Haze are both uncommon moves and sparsely distributed. Not everyone is going to run PSong Celebi or Haze Vap/Milo, or even Weezing. Hard hitters are out of the question (especially Banders) since every BP chain will simply lead sub protect Ninjask up to +6, pass out to a resist (probably scizor or vap) and begin defensive boosting. You NEED to get a phazer in, but after the initial reveal of your phazer youre going to have to predict flawlessly for the rest of the match, bringing it in on everything except Ingrain Smeargle. Tbh even if you argue that it isnt broken (which it is), the point still remains that it hands players victories far, far, far too easily for absolutely minimal skill, which ultimately defeats the purpose of the ladder. Matches involving BP Chains are ultimately decided before the match has even begun, regardless of player skill. It is simply not conducive to a competitive ADV metagame to have BP chains allowed. It promotes ignorance, lack of thought, and a bad stigma about the tier - something which everyday ADV is regarded the complete opposite of. Hard evidence is hard to come by in a tier that is not all that popular, especially when (and I'm fairly confident I speak for all respected ADV players) none of us ever want to use BP chains because its brain numbing and we respect our opponents enough to play them properly. Nevertheless I'm sure we can run up some test games and show evidence, but I personally don't think its necessary. No-ones opposed because people like to play ADV as a competitive meta and not the bland husk of a game that BP chains make it.
The only thing you listed that actually beats Smeargle and friends are Perish Song Celebi and Hazelotic. Running hard hitters doesn't beat Baton Pass. We know. We play ADV. Nearly all of us agree. I understand that you want a different perspective but the community agrees that corrective action needs to be taken!
Most of the staff agree that this ban should be implemented. We're currently discussing the ban method but this should be done soon.
Not going to argue this whole topic much having only a little ADV experience, but.. this applies to any metagame. Just because people are not using something does not mean they should not be using it, especially if it hard-counters something they consider to be broken. Calling BS on something you don't like while not preparing for it is kind of absurd. And guys, Oak does actually know advance. If he's asking for evidence, give him evidence, don't just say you disagree.
I want to also add that Mr. Mime is an extremely valid/valuable pokemon for Adv baton pass that can easily stop Perish Song. It's also not hard to run Taunt on a baton pass team, while PSong Celebi and Haze Vap/Milo have to specialise to beat it.
The whole point is with Ingrain Smeargle nothing hard counters BP. Phazing moves are shut down by the Ingrain. Perish Song is shut down by Mr. Mime. Explosion is negated via Protect and many many defense boosts with Acid Armor and such. Haze doesn't happen because of Taunt. BP has all the tools to beat everything aimed against it. Additionally, even if it were beatable more than 50% of the time by carrying all of the above tools, which I'd adamantly argue that it isn't, it still overcentralizes the metagame and forces people to carry wayyyyy too many things that they otherwise would not have to and that would be bad in almost every other matchup.
Except your Taunter won't always be out when your opp sends out the Hazer. Although without Rocks it's quite easily for a Ninjask to just restart the chain from 0, although it can't really win at that point unless he pulls an insane trick. Same applies to Taunt, you can't always predict perfectly and send the Taunter into the opposing Taunt user. Also, the best tactic imo is to boost alongside the Ninjask then smack the whole chain, maybe with DDtar / DDmence and then smack them hard.
That doesn't really speak to whether you believe Ingrain Smeargle should be banned or not. The thread is devolving into the best way to combat Baton Pass chains which is definitely not where it was intended to go. I'm on board with the very large majority of knowledgeable ADV players and saying that it should definitely be banned. People who believe that's "because you got swept by it" or "you ban everything you can't beat" are just immature trolls looking to argue as opposed to people who actually know about the metagame and want the best for the community as a whole. If I'm able to beat something is it not good enough to ban? Likewise, if I CAN'T beat something do I automatically want to ban it? Not everyone is a raging egotistical child like some PO players. The people trying to ban Ingrain Smeargle here aren't people who are claiming to be the best if not for that Poke and the OP, nor the supporters, have at all raged about it and said anything to imply that they have a huge ego and are mad because Smeagle beat them. We're all just guys who love ADV and are quite familiar with it and we collectively agree with the same conclusion that has already been put into effect in many other places- Ingrain Smeargle should be banned.
This is a suspect discussion, and as such discussing possible counters to the suspect is entirely appropriate. Additionally, you have been infracted for insulting other users. Calling (or very strongly implying) your opponents are "immature trolls looking to argue" and "raging egotistical child[ren]" is blatantly unacceptable anywhere on these forums, and even moreso in a suspect thread. If you wish to debate rules, do so with a little respect and coolheadedness.
Just an idea, you guys may want to start presenting evidence, as in logs showing off how this is broken. Since basically saying that you think it should be banned doesn't seem to be working. And you shouldn't have it start on turn 72.
Serious question, what are the criteria we're using to define something as broken before a vote/consensus/whatever among skilled players in the metagame? Because honestly unless we lay out well-defined criteria and thresholds for "brokenness" a log isn't going to demonstrate anything and will just confirm the biases of all parties involved, then bam we're right back where we started: simply making tiering decisions according to what "feels" right for most skilled ADV players.
Well in my opinion I think that the undying support this had before Oak/ete noticed it was enough, but apparently you guys haven't shown evidence, or at least not enough of it. Really, this whole issue about dealing with past gens(removing freeze clause from both RBY, GSC and arguably ADV because it was decided in later generations that it was unneeded, etc) is something that is going to be addressed in a forum that will hopefully be going public very soon.