[BW2] BW2 OU Potential Suspects Thread

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by IFM, Jul 13, 2012.

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  1. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    so Choice Band max Attack Technician boosted STAB attacks cannot even OHKO Kyurem-B? I think I see your point.
     
  2. Scene

    Scene reverie

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    I don't play much OU and I'm not really any good, but I'd strongly push for a Landy-I suspect. It's so strong, versatile and difficult to effectively counter (U-Turn wrecks its main counters Lati@s and Celebi). Not calling it broken right now, but I think it'd be beneficial to give the thing a suspect.
     
  3. 1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs

    1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs New Member

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    This same bs applies to Kyurem-w lol. So is Kyurem-w not broken too?
     
  4. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Pardon my questioning, but why would we ban Kyurem-B when it was just retested and deemed not broken in a similar metagame? Has the removal of Genesect and Deoxys-D, the addition of Garchomp, and implimentation of Sand Veil / Snow Cloak ban suddenly made it broken? I don't think so!

    Edit: Genesect didn't exactly counter / check Kyurem-B. The metagame didn't become more stally, it's still full of HO teams.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2013
  5. 1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs

    1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs New Member

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    Pretty sure that's a valid reason because genesect horrendously over shadowed it. Not only that, but the meta has slowed down considerably in K-b's favor, meaning stall/balanced teams are more common. And everyone knows how k-b shits on them.
     
  6. palkia62

    palkia62 Member

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    Doubt it could with it's terrible physical movepool. I would go into more detail but I think it would be better for you to read pg15-16.
     
  7. 1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs

    1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs New Member

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    It's movepool isn't as bad as so many of you are making it out to be. Instead of being close minded, why don't look at the sets that have merit. The substitute and mixed sets in particular destroy slower teams. I don't give two shits what you think of its movepool, it has just enough to fuck things up and that's what matters. The fact that it can 6-0 stall teams or at the bare MINIMUM take out half of the team is something to be concerned over. PO took a long ass time to ban blaziken and a lot of the same sentiments expressed at that period are being expressed now. Lets not continually make po a laughing stock and at the very least do a legitimate suspect test. All these so called "flaws" you list are inconsequential, Kuyrem-w posses the very same flaws and look where it's at.
     
  8. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    ^ not quite. Kyurem-W has a useable Ice STAB to go with its stronger attacking stat. That's one of the main differences imo.
     
  9. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    It also has Earth Power and Fusion Flare, a Ground and fire move respectively, to compliment it's 170 base special attack. Failing that it has a free nuke to use with Draco Meteor where it can just switch out after hitting or killing something, whereas Kyurem-B has to lock itself into Outrage. Kyurem-W also doesn't need to rely on Hidden Power, as it has all the coverage moves it could dream of without it; with only Draco Meteor+Fusion Flare it has perfect coverage against anything because of its ability. It's been said time and time again, if Kyurem-B got Ice Punch or just Earthquake - some other physical moves besides Dragon+Electric ones - it probably would be uber right now. Its move set is slightly less relevant because of the giant base 170 Attack, but its weakness to rocks greatly hinders its bulk(it almost always starts out on the field at 75% health), base 95 speed sits slower than a substantial amount of special and physical attackers in the tier, and the fact that Outrage requires you to lock into it really weighs down on Kyurem-B's ability to break OU.

    It's an ideal wall breaker, which is why stall teams can have problems with it. Even then HP Fire is abysmally weak even against the likes of Ferrothorn when in the rain(where most steel types are used), and if you invest in special attack without a Choice Band you lose that absolutely obscene power in its Outrage and Fusion Bolt. It has to sacrifice too much in one area to try and cover all its bases, while Kyurem-W quite literally only has Chansey and Blissey to effectively wall it, and can just play hit and run games with Draco Meteor the whole game. It plays so much differently than Kyurem-B does.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2013
  10. 1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs

    1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs New Member

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    Uhh what? lol. Choice Band is like the worst set, the mixed set is why it's such a bitch to deal with. And if Ferrothorn lacks gyro ball, a sub set can easily beat it with repeated ice beams. Hidden power fire can even be invested enough to do serious damage to thorn even in the rain. It's not just a wallbreaker like Hydreigon or mixmence, you can play around those because of Draco Meteor and their coverage moves also have serious flaws. This thing 2HKos everything. It doesn't matter how abysmal its coverage seems, especially since it has all it needs anyway.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2013
  11. Mario with lasers

    Mario with lasers Banned

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    When you say "this thing has a shallow movepool" the obvious implication would be "therefore it has few viable sets, making it predictable".
    However you couldn't be further from the truth about Kyurem-B, as it can run no less than 6 standard sets, making it one of the most unpredictable threats in OU.

    Expecting to wall that CB Outrage with your Forretress? NOPE it was actually a LO-boosted HP Fire and you just got OHKO'd through Sturdy thanks to Teravolt.
    Trying to sponge that Ice Beam with your Chansey? Sorry, I'm actually running SubHoneClaws and you just sent Kyu-B's favorite setup fodder out.
    Surely specially defensive Jirachi should wall this thing to hell and back. Not really, as Earth Power will still 2HKO it.
    Maybe you could try to revenge kill it, knowing that it was running CB? Actually not, it was running Scarf and that outreagous amount of damage didn't need a boost from CB to KO your previous mon.

    A decently played Kyurem-B will get a free kill for each pokemon slower than it in the opposing team.
    A well-played Kyurem-B will consistently kill half a team no matter the matchup.
    It really has no place in OU.

    Because its most effective sets are now beginning to gain popularity and people have finally realized how versatile this thing is. Kyurem-B's old suspect test was a complete joke as everyone and their mom ran CB (its worst set) and commented on how easy it was to revenge kill after it locked itself into Outrage. Never mind this thing has 120 sp.atk, a great special movepool, excellent bulk, useful resistances and a speed tier that lets it outpace the entire support metagame and even a few offensive threats.

    Using Kyurem-B as a pure physical attacker is like using Deoxys-D as a wall - they work, but you're not using them to their full potential.
    Deoxys-D was the epitome of bulky entry hazard setter (while STILL being able to play other sets), while Kyurem-B is the epitome of bulky mixed attacker (just as Deo-D, that's not all it's good for). They can play very specialized sets and in the right hands they give the user an enormous advantage over the opponent.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2013
  12. palkia62

    palkia62 Member

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    As I said, 'terrible physical movepool'. All the Kyurems share the flaws of average speed, poor defensive typing, weak to all hazards, etc. But Kyurem-w special movepool is what makes it differ from Kyurem-b because it has much better coverage on its stronger attacking stat. Maybe I was mistaken by saying stall teams would not have a hard time dealing with it, but that would be the case with most wallbreakers.

    Also, hydreigon is better at running the specially mixed set imo considering it has better coverage than Kyurem-b and has levitate so it's not hit too hard by hazards. Hydreigon is in a similar position with Kyurem-b in the fact that there are no hard counters to Hydreigon and it can run just as much sets as Kyurem-b.

    I don't think anyone said 'it has a shallow move' but pretty much said it had a terrible physical movepool which suggests it is difficult for it to rely on its physical attacks solely. Having to rely on its special attacking stat to be used to its 'full potential' means it has to find a way to spread its evs for attack, sp. attack and speed to make it effective while trying to cover its hp as well so it can have an easier time survive priority attacks.

    Predicting sets is the problem with other pokemon as well in OU and you're likely gonna have to sacrifice a pokemon to see which set it is for certain ones.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2013
  13. Mario with lasers

    Mario with lasers Banned

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    The difference between other offensive pokemon and Kyu-B is that the latter can do over 50% damage to resists.
    Each free turn Kyu-B gets (re: against ANY defensive mon in OU other than very specific cases like Ferrothorn with Gyro Ball), you can potentially lose anywhere from 50% to 100% HP on one of your pokemon.
    Even if you outpredict it, the odds are still greatly in Kyu-B's favor.
     
  14. phucvn

    phucvn Cheap player

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    252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie in rain: 166-196 (63.6 - 75.09%)
    So yeah, what else do you have? Cuz none of your posts convinced me yet.
     
  15. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    1. that calc is in rain and is pretty biased, and 2. Kyurem-B can Sub up vs standard Starmie, while Keldeo is OHKO'd.
     
  16. palkia62

    palkia62 Member

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    As I said before, Kyurem-B has no hard counters, which was the case with Hydreigon as well. Not much can reliably switch in to it without knowing its set or risking being outpredicted, but that's the case with a few pokemon such as Dragonite and terrakion.

    Kyurem-B can be easily checked, especially if it runs the mixed set, due to its average speed. All of the dragons in OU except for Dragonite, the swords of justice and a few others can outspeed Kyurem-B so it can be a problem if it's locked on outrage. Even if is not, Kyu-B does not like switching in and out constantly due to its weakness to hazard.
     
  17. ZodiaK

    ZodiaK Get the fuck off my porch

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    This was exaggerated but it's a very accurate statement and portrayal of what has occured and is presently occuring. Kyu-Broken needs to go, It's quite unpredictable, the sub sets being the best, while the CB set still destroys pokemon while being resisted while even scarf sets having value.

    here's some current usage statistics:

    [​IMG]
     
  18. 1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs

    1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs New Member

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    Your comparisons are pretty dumb imo. First off, Hydreigon has to rely on Super Power and Draco Meteor to net kills, both of which have dastardly side effects. This actually makes playing around it a thing. Now before you say, "but outrage", Kyurem-B doesn't even need outrage to use its best sets, mixed/sub. Second your argument about ev splits is really annoying and just as dumb. Deo-A needed to split its evs, but that didn't stop it from being a monster. Most freaking mixed attackers do that, why the fuck should splitting evs count for anything???
     
  19. george182

    george182 Active Member

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    How is a pokemon 52nd on the useage list a potential suspect?

    Arguably:

    Kyurem-B's special sets are outclassed by Kyurem due to it's higher special attack.

    The choice band set is outclassed by Haxorus, due to it's higher speed, lack of SR weakness and better coverage options. Choice band Kyurem-B is rather sucky anyway as it's only spamable move is Outrage. (Fusion Bolt kinda sucks for spamming) and Dragon claw has low BP.

    The mix set is somewhat outclassed by Hydreigon in terms of wallbreaking due to it's better movepool, lack of SR weakness and it's somewhat less prediction reliant as hydreigon only needs 3 attacks to break the metagame. Mix Kyurem-B almost always has 4 IIRC. Infact the mix set is just stupid, sr weak, life orb, vulnerable to ss and it doesn't use roost and if you look at the useage statistics no one uses the mix life orb set anyway.

    In reality the sub set and the scarf set are the only sets that should be considered here. Saying it can do stuff that it never does or isn't very good at doing is a void argument.

    Saying it can 6-0 stall is also kind of a stupid argument, there are defensive pokemon that can check Kyurem-B and it's weak to all forms of entry hazards. Hydreigon is a much better stall breaker.

    I get the argument that being able to do different things well can make something overpowered, but this is more applicable to things that can threaten a set up move e.g. Salamence in gen4. Or Landorus-I. Because then you have to death fodder something that it can't set up on in order to scout it without them getting multiple boosts.
     
  20. 1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs

    1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs New Member

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    LOL since when does usage ever have a bearing in suspect testing? Deo-N and Blaziken were BL fyi.


    We're talking about the mixed sets Mr. know it all.

    No. Haxorus lacks the raw power K-B has and can't reliably break past skarmory or ferrothorn w/o resorting to super power.

    Can you quit mentioning fucking stealth rock as an argument? And if you used your head and started to read, you'd know you're wrong. Because A) Hydreigon's attacks have nasty side effect B) it's so much frailer and C)K-B hits waaay harder

    False. Once again usage is no indicator of viability. Instead of bantering ignorant arguments, test the set yourself and see.

    LMAO. K-B 2HKOs more than half of the members on stall teams if not all. And I don't see how fucking stealth rock stops it from attacking. There's also the fact that Hydreigon has to be forced out once it nabs a kill, so if anything it's more susceptible to the hazard because of how much more exposure it gets to it.
     
  21. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    If you're not using Outrage you pretty much lose the one thing that makes Kyurem-B stand out among the other physical dragons and its base form. Anyway, it "amazing" special coverage only really saves it from Heatran because of Earth Power. 120 Special Attack is nice, but without STAB behind Earth Power...

    252 SpAtk Kyurem-B Earth Power vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Jirachi: 36.14% - 43.07%
    252 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs 252 HP/0 Def Jirachi: 19.8% - 23.51%
    252 Atk Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs 0 HP/0 Def Jirachi: 39.3% - 46.33%

    You can't get past Jirachi, to name one pokemon, and Hidden Power Fire can't 2HKO Ferrothorn in rain, which it's commonly seen in. I'm not bothering calcing Heatran but that's extremely obvious.

    I'm assuming you're not going to use Fusion Bolt since you're using a mixed set that uses Substitute and you also mention its great special coverage, which probably means you want Earth Power. But that leads into something else...

    So you keep mentioning the Sub set. Which means you need Fusion Bolt, HP Fire(which doesn't solve the not being able to get past defensive steels problem at all), Earth Power, and Dragon Claw(you really should use Outrage), along with Ice Beam as well for random Gliscor and Landorus-T. That's 5 moves, plus you're trying to fit Substitute on there which makes 6, and the fact that you're mentioning Life Orb means you're already down 35% health when you eventually fire off an attack. That's ignoring the 25% shaved off by rocks every time you want to come in, and the enemy may have a layer of spikes as well. Add in Sandstorm to that and you're looking at upwards of 50% health being taken away before you even damage an enemy. Oh, and this is neglecting any kind of status ailment or random attacks that you may or may not switch into. You can't even achieve perfect coverage in 4 moves, let alone 3; something always stops you. I can post a wall of calcs if you really want me to, but I don't think it's necessary.

    Now, how is that such an overwhelming pokemon?

    Also, I neglected Life Orb in the damage calcs because the most common set with Life Orb is only used 2% of the time according to this.

    I wouldn't go assuming no one in this thread has extensively used Kyurem-B. It was a huge deal while it was suspected and easily made people forget about the likes of Genesect and Deoxys-D.
     
  22. 1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs

    1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs New Member

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    Congrats. You found yourself one counter to the substitute set out of the 100 or so OU viable Pokemon. That's not centralizing at all, I mean it's not like Tornadus-T didn't have that same counter either and look where it's at. I never said its special coverage was amazing so idk wth you're doing quoting it like I did. I said it was enough. Second, you don't run sub with LO, this makes me believe that you haven't used that set at all or you're using it incorrectly, in either case, you lack proper experience with K-B. Second, the sub set runs ---> Fusion Bolt / Dragon Claw | Ice Beam / Ice Beam | HP Fire | Roost. Really, the only thing that can continually come in and take those attacks is Jirachi, Heatran is getting worn out FAST. I also love how you excluded LO from your calcs b/c you know it doesn't help your argument (i.e. Jirachi is actually 2HKO'd, shocker). But if you want to play the usage argument, you'd be aware that more ferrothorn run Power Whip than Gyro Ball, which -gasp-, makes it set up bait to the sub set! People didn't use K-B "extensively" during its suspect test lol. Even in the smogon test it only had around 4% usage. That statement would be more convincing if it didn't drop to BL. And saying people forgot about genesect is so lol, idek man. I'm not even going into the all-out mixed set, which has way better coverage and is much stronger. Really, the only arguments I got from you were, Jirachi counters one set, no one uses lo so it's not a threat, it's weak to sr (even though it has reliable recovery to make up for it) and it overshadowed Deo-D and Genesect (which it didn't), making it not broken.
     
  23. palkia62

    palkia62 Member

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    Hydreigon can at least switch out after using those by only worrying about sr when it switches in whereas Kyurem-B has a problem with all hazards. Kyurem-B's mixed set (and hydreigon's)is easily checked in by a lot of pokes, as I mentioned before, forcing it to switch out a lot.

    Running a sub set also means you lose a moveslot on it and can only use 3 attacking moves on it, which could be put down to 2 if you run LO and would then likely use roost
    to recover health from the subs + damage. But's let's stick with 3 moves shall we:

    -Fusion Bolt is the move that's always going be use so it can hit steels with a physical move.
    -Ice beam, HP fire and Earth Power are your choice for its last 2 moveslots, and having to sacrifice one of those moves means you're going to be potentially walled against certain pokemon.
    -Without Ice beam, this set is pretty much walled by ground types as only HP fire can do much to Gliscor and Landorus whereas Earth power is your best bet against grounds like Garchomp and Mamoswine and a lot of dragons will have an easier time checking in.
    -Without HP fire Ferrothorn can become annoying for Kyurem-B with Ice beam being its best bet against that and ice beam at best is 3-4HKO with maximum special attack and Ferrothorn can just use Gyro ball for it. Scizor then requires to be 2hko by fusion bolt.
    -Without Earth Power, specially defensive Heatran has to be 3-4HKO by Fusion bolt and can potentially be roared out by said Heatran.

    Specially defensive Jirachi is also still difficult to take out considering it is only 3HKO by Kyurem-B allowing to be hit by Body Slam to likely be paralysed and then be 2-3HKOed by Iron Head. Chansey can also take this set as it is only 4HKO by Fusion bolt allowing to Heal and get in seismic toss.
     
  24. 1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs

    1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs New Member

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    3 coverage moves and only one Pokemon can counter it. Its checks are getting 3HKO'd at worst and i can only think of heatran who avoid the 2HKO from its other attacks and even then it's risky to switch into b/c of earth power. Things can check it, yes, but everything bar Heatran (who's worn out very easily) and Jirachi are getting 2HKO'd. So idk why the heck you keep saying 3 moves aren't enough when it has all it needs and then some. Hydreigon is also forced out when it attacks, K-B is not. That's a huge freaking difference that I keep saying yet you keep ignoring. And b/c of the nasty side effects of Hydra's attacks, it can be played around. In the case of K-B, it's not. Ergo, K-B is actually a better mixed attacker than Hydra. And since when will Garchomp ever fucking switch in on K-B? That's the stupidest shit I've ever heard. It's just as dumb as switching Lando-T and Gliscor into K-B knowing very well it can cleanly OHKO both. You're gambling a lot here and that odds aren't in your favor. By the time you figure out the moves, I guarantee that you've lost at least 2 Pokemon in the process. How the fuck is that not broken? Tell me.

    P.S. I'm talking about fucking stall teams, where the hell is Scizor coming from.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2013
  25. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    oh god, people here talking like Kyurem-B is a world destroyer (derp)... It's surely a strong threat, but is still hard stopped by it's usual counters: Jirachi, Ferrothorn (specially in rain), Bronzong. Metagross is other nice answer to him too (i found an usage increase of metagross, maybe for kyu).
    And due to his weakness to the 2 top priority moves (Bullet Punch, Mach Punch), weakness to Stealth Rocks and average speed, u are very pressured again revenge kills.

    About other aspects:
    - Mixed sets of Kuyrem are situational, also to make the special attack worth it, u need invest at least some points on it, while losing points in the physical side.
    - Sub Kyurem-B is a threat? oh wait, sub Hydreigon is also a threat, sub Terrakion other threat, sub Garchomp a threat too, see where im going?


    Tl;dr: Kyurem-B isn't broken.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2013
  26. george182

    george182 Active Member

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    Spamming superpower is great with Haxorus, nails anything that switches in for decent damage. Spamming Outrage early game sucks, not matter how high your attack is.

    Why would you quit the stealth rock argument, it's a pretty big factor for something that wants to abuse it's resistances and switch in loads? It's not like Thundurus who only wants to switch in once and Nasty Plot sweep.



    So NU pokemon are just as good as OU pokemon? No, that's why the tier was made using useage stats. Usesage stats are a factor to consider, even if they aren't the be all and end all. "People use things because they're good". More importantly IF NO ONE USES THE MIX SET THEN IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW GOOD IT IS, it can't break the metagame if it isn't used in the metagame. Look at the usesage stats no one uses mix 4 attack Kyurem-B. Earthpower and Hidden Power are barely used on their own.

    Blaziken was banned in a metagame that wasn't settled in any shape or form. So usesage stats weren't reliable.


    Hydreigon isn't SR weak so it's happy to switch in loads, play 50/50 mind games and then switch out. Kyurem-B can't do this, switching out is a big deal when things like spikes, toxic spikes and sr on the field. Hyreigon is not more susceptible to entry hazards and breaking stall isn't all about KOing things.

    But the whole destroying stall argument isn't great because it has counters that aren't being used. When Kyurem-B becomes more popular, it's counters will become more popular.


    You seem to have this idea that Kyurem-B can just switch into everything and then proceed to win the game. This isn't the reality, it's typing makes it a great switch into the water types, but it's not the best typing for other pokemon. Typing > Bulk I think you'll agree? It's also very easy to revenge kill especially by the common musketeers, lati twins, scarfers and priority etc. If something is easy to force out and SR weak then it's ability to be effective is hampered.

    Kyurem-B is a very good pokemon, nothing more.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2013
  27. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    That's a lot of moves and you didn't even mention sub itself yet lol.

    Anyway, you should stop acting like Kyurem-B can run all these moves at the same time. Even though its movepool is usually regarded as being bad, it actually suffers from 4MSS. As pnerd said as well, there'll always be a counter no matter what combination of moves you run (and then I'm not even talking about Jirachi who only fears Banded Outrages/Fusion Bolts). Kyurem-B is probably OU's best stallbreaker at the moment, but even stall has ways to beat it. Sun Stall has Cresselia whom Kyurem-B can't touch. As soon as Sand Stall figures out the exact moveset via some scouting, it can go to pokes like Hippowdon (if it lacks Ice Beam), Forretress (if it lacks HP Fire, which is really uncommon afaik), Jirachi which is as hard a counter as you'll get, or even Heatran to phase it out if it lacks Earth Power. Rain Stall has Ferrothorn who just laughs at it with Gyro Ball/Leech Seed. It's also SR weak (that's a valid argument, no way around that), it absolutely despises status and when we're talking about sand stall specifically, it'll lose 16% every turn (considering they're using LO which you're talking about), and that's without Substitute or hazards.

    Against offense, it's not nearly as good. It's really not fast enough for the BW2 metagame, and it's weak to common priority such as Mach Punch and Scizor's Bullet Punch. Sure, offense may lose a poke, but they don't care nearly as much as more defensive based teams. I'll list some of the most common pokes found on offense, who check or at least revenge kill Kyurem-B: Scizor, Terrakion, Keldeo, Breloom, Jirachi, Latios, Latias and Garchomp. It's a rare sight when an offensive team doesn't have at least 2 of those.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2013
  28. ZodiaK

    ZodiaK Get the fuck off my porch

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    Detailed Result:
    252 Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/0 Def Jirachi: 48,76% - 57,43%
    2-3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

    Detailed Result:
    252 Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B (+Atk) Fusion Bolt vs 252 HP/0 Def Jirachi: 54,46% - 64,11%
    2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

    can't even call jirachi a counter to Kyurem-B since if it gets destroyed be the CB set, although sure rachi can check the Sub varients.
     
  29. george182

    george182 Active Member

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    So a jirachi set eved for special attackers that can wall Kyurem-B's main set (the sub one) and you think that's an argument for it being broken?

    As previously stated cb Kyurem-B sucks because it relies on Outrage so if it gets a KO it just gets revenge killed and I can choose what to fodder, you don't choose what to KO. Fussion bolt isn't a great coverage move for spamming due to all the things immune to it that can switch in turn2.
     
  30. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    That was my bad, sorry about that.

    Actually I was struggling to think of a reason why you'd want to run LO on Kyurem-B at all, since Roost is much less desirable than the free turn Substitute can give you against fast attackers that may be switched in to answer Kyurem-B if it does take down something. You also have to play mind games to successfully Roost with Kyurem at all without getting smacked with a status effect, which is the other reason why Sub is desirable as a fourth move and why LO is such a bad item on it. Plus it wants to avoid all the damage it possibly can, since most common priority does quite a number on it.

    I'll assume you meant Fusion Bolt / Dragon Claw | Ice Beam / HP Fire | Roost | Substitute? Otherwise you just gave 4 move slots up without even putting Substitute on the pokemon.

    Again, LO Kyurem-B gets worn down so fast it's barely even an argument. You weaken a wall or two and then die to a moderately powerful attack due to losing half your HP from rocks+LO recoil+the attack you switched into, and possible sandstorm damage.

    Why do you think it didn't get much usage? People from smogon do pay attention to what happens over here, even though we tend to frequently follow behind their suspects. They saw we tested Kyurem-B and gave it a whirl here, after which it was pushed for on Smogon and it turned out to be a good pokemon, nothing more. If anything the simple fact that it dropped to BL in an OU metagame that was stable proves that it just wasn't all it was cracked up to be.

    I never said people forgot about Genesect(they definitely weren't paying mind to Deoxys at that time), simply that Kyurem-B was the hot ticket item when it was tested. All eyes were on how it would impact the metagame, and people didn't talk about anything else in the first week of the test.

    The all out mixed set falls prey to having absolutely no recovery, which makes it a one time use wall breaker against well built teams. You're exaggerating Kyurem's bulk here. No one is disagreeing with the fact that Kyurem-B is an awesome wall breaker, because it really is. But that's all it is; an extremely hard hitting pokemon with a plethora of other faults that balance out its damage output. It can't run Band and Mixed sets at once, and it can't run Sub+Roost+3 other attacks either.

    EDIT: I feel the comment about spinning being easy needs to be addressed. We banned Deoxys-D. This is a pokemon that has no business doing anything but spiking and occasionally laying down rocks if you needed it to. How is spinning so easy when we banned a pokemon that does nothing but lay hazards?
    And technically provide dual screens but that wasn't the reason for the ban.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2013
  31. 1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs

    1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs New Member

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    What the hell does that have to do with anything?

    Oh, Idk maybe because K-W and Ho-OH have a SR weakness and that doesn't stop them from being broken? Maybe that's why it's retarded and the fact that spinning in ou is easy as fuck anyway.

    Great job taking things out of context.

    Not in this case! Especially since stuff like Blaziken and Deo-N were BL. And it's spelled *Usage

    So Blaziken and DEo-N are bad then?

    NO ONE USES ARCEUS THEN IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW GOOD IT IS

    LOL you just refuted your entire argument.


    Kyurem doesn't even have to switch out, lol.

    Yeah, b/c it stays in and continually kills things.

    LOL I love how you're assuming all hazards are present with Kyurem and Tspikes sucks in ou.

    LOL then what exactly is? Is taking out half a stall team not good enough for you?

    No it doesn't. It has checks. Counters have to be able to switch into every move possible and force it out. Nothing like that fits OU.



    On stall teams yes.



    Yeah, b/c switching into stall teams is so hard.

    We're alking about stall lol. And what's cool is that none of those Pokemon can switch in.

    Lol no
     
  32. Mario with lasers

    Mario with lasers Banned

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    To those who say that despite all this Kyurem-B isn't broken, could someone tell me why Reshiram, for example, is banned and was never tested in OU? Its bulk is worse, its speed is worse, the extremely common rain nerf its secondary STAB which counterbalances its otherwise perfect dual STAB, it's still SR weak (and shares that weakness with Ninetales, which would be an obvious partner) and its typing isn't much better defensively. With Keldeo, Landorus, Terrakion, faster dragons, Tyranitar, Politoed and SR everywhere in OU Reshiram would often be forced out/revenge killed and it sure as hell isn't going to beat a half decent rain stall team anytime soon as long as Politoed is around.
    Been said that, what pushes Reshiram into ubers is clear: its Draco Meteor coming from 150 Sp.Atk, i.e. an obscenely powerful and spammable attack. And that certainly isn't the only thing Reshiram is good for because it has many other sets at its disposal.
    Sounds familiar?

    Kyurem-B might have its flaws, but it's versatile, and while its best sets (namely Mixed and SubStitute) do have (very) few counters, keep this in mind:
    Kyurem-B still has the option of running CB and kill something, even resists, without fail, unless the user is a complete moron.

    Worst case scenario with CB you're killing something and then be forced out or revenge killed. In the hands of a skilled player this puts incredible pressure on any opponent, no matter how skilled and/or prepared for Kyu-B they are.

    So what makes Kyurem-B broken is:
    Kyurem-B can either run sets that are capable of ripping though half a team or more, while still having the option of running a completely brainless set and guaranteeing a kill per match

    It's deadly in the hands of a skilled player.
    It's still deadly in the hands a complete noob.
    It's the definition of uber.
     
  33. george182

    george182 Active Member

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  34. 1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs

    1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs New Member

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    Because it 2Hkoes everything at MINIMUM?

    Sub is way more valuable than you're making it out to be. Dodge status, harder to revenge kill, not screwed by crits, ect.

    That applies to EVERYTHING, lol. Even Arceus.

    an attacker's primary goal isn't to dodge damage, it's to dish it out.

    Correct

    Stall teams don't have powerful attacks lol. And you're seriously underestimating the potency of LO against stall. Weaking 2 walls is a huge understatement. It's killing something, I've played with it enough to know that. K-B is better in practice than on paper. But let's play with your example anyway. If i weakened say Skarmory and Landorus-T with K-B then it died, then my Swords Dance Garchomp will be free to rip shit apart because that stall team relied on those two Pokemon to check it. In many cases K-B is either destroying stall on its own, or weakening the team enough to where any average sweeper can.

    How many times do I have to bring up Deo-N and Blaziken to refute these statements? lol

    It's still enough to nab at least one kill and weaken two other things.

    Not when it can setup on most walls and survive SE priority moves from the two most powerful priority users in ou I'm not.

    I never said it did.

    Jirachi is actually 2hko'd by LO earth power.

    I'm pretty sure you have it the other way around. Cresselia can't even break K-B's sub and can instead have moonlight stalled out with repeated attacks. Ergo, it loses to K-B and is actually set up bait. Surprise surprise.

    I'm sure it's that easy to figure it out. Unless you have the prediction of a god, the bare minimum damage you'll get is one pokemon lost or 2 pokemon crippled. Even IF you do scout its movesets, your dependent on having the right pokemon to beat that indidvual spread of moves, which you aren't always guaranteed to have. Even then, you know what it has, that doesn't mean its power goes away. Tornadus-T was predictable af but that didn't stop it from being broken.

    Lol, you're in a rude ass awaking if you face a Scarf K-B vs HO offense. The funny part is that K-B is bulky enough to survive those priority moves, which means Scizor and Breloom risk getting OHKO'd themselves when they try to revenge kill it.

    Guaranteeing that threat x will kill one of your pokemon sounds pretty devastating to me. Idk what the heck you're talking. It's especially bad when you relied on that offensive pokemon to check something on the opposing team.

    The fun part is that Scarf OHKOes all but one of those.
     
  35. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Kyurem-B is fine in OU because it is revenge killed easily by many pokemon like Terrakion, Scizor, Scarfed Politoed, Landorus, Keldeo, Scarfed Jirachi, Latios/Latias, Salamence etc.

    It also has a crippling SR weakness that stops it from switching in and out a lot.

    And last but not least, Steel-types resist both Kyurem-B's stab moves and hit it back with a stab super effective move.
     
  36. Nikitas

    Nikitas Member

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    Anyway, Kyu-B suffers from 4MSS, a weakness to every hazard available, average speed at best by OU standards for a sweeper, the two most common priority types. Is having really good bulk and an extraordinary attack stat THAT good to not only cover up for these faults but also make it broken? Please. I like semi stall and I have faced Kyu-B several times. Needless to say that the only times I have trouble is when its leading because there is no SR. Versus offense, Kyu-B has an even harder time switching in (tbh, only after something has fainted).
    Also, do not mention spinning plz. It is neither easy nor Kyu-B's. Coz I could argue that Ferrothorn with Wish pass Rachi destroy the combo of Kyu-B + Spinner, gg.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 28, 2013
  37. Maple Syrup

    Maple Syrup blessermans

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    How does Kyurem-B not have 4MSS?

    Let's try to build this "broken" mixed K-B set now.

    Kyurem (Kyurem-B) @ Leftovers/Life Orb
    Trait: Teravolt
    EVs: 160 HP / 96 Atk / 252 SAtk
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Fusion Bolt/Dragon Claw/Outrage
    - Ice Beam/HP Fire
    - Earth Power/Ice Beam
    - Substitute/Roost

    K-B will need a lot of moves to break stall. It can't run all of them.

    It can run a Dragon Move to hit dragons and no steels. Arguably to break stall it needs to use a powerful physical dragon type move like Dragon Claw or Outrage so it can hit Sp. Def walls like Chansey.

    It can also run Fusion Bolt if you don't want to use a Dragon move. Although fusion bolt hits a lot of useful stuff (rain) and can allow BoltBeam coverage it still does not hit as hard as K-B's powerful Dragon Stabs. Even Max Atk Adamant Kyurem-B can't KO Chansey with the move it needs for superior coverage.

    252 Atk Kyurem-B (+Atk) Fusion Bolt vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 27.56% - 32.53% (3-4 hits to KO)

    Ice Beam is a good stab for Ground Types and you should always run it.

    Earth Power is for pokemon like Jirachi or Heatran which otherwise wall Kyurem-B.

    Then you can run Sub to avoid status and hit hard.

    You can also run roost to avoid SR and LO recoil.

    Then HP-Fire is also needed for Ferrothorn and Forretress. Doesn't give too much coverage.

    How is that not 4MSS?
     
  38. ZodiaK

    ZodiaK Get the fuck off my porch

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  39. 1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs

    1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs New Member

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    The set you gave is crap. Why don't you take a look at the standard set on smogon. The spreads and slashes for each combination is enough so only one pokemon can reliably take on each combo. I wouldn't say K-B has 4mss, not by a long shot. The defense team is the one that has to be concerned if K-B is going to beat their "check", not the other way around. Because as anybody with a brain knows, defensive teams don't pressure offensive ones.
     
  40. Mario with lasers

    Mario with lasers Banned

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    And I could argue that Kyurem-B running its mixed set destroys them both. Your point?
     
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