Do you want to keep Stadium?

Discussion in 'Development General' started by Blastcore, May 31, 2012.

?

Keep Stadium with true RBY?

  1. Yes

    50.5%
  2. No

    49.5%
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  1. spike

    spike New Member

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    slo fade explained everything perfectly and as i write this the vote is almost half yes and half no so why not just leave it there. Chrispy said its already programmed and there is no harm in keeping it and im sure alot of people including myself would agree with that...
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2012
  2. Dr. Fuji

    Dr. Fuji Active Member

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    Well basically I was bound to vote whatever Lutra voted and his vote was very predictable I'm going to say at least keep Stadium OU the other tiers are played so little I wouldn't mind if they were dropped however the strategy is very different in stadium and if we can justify ADV 200 I'm sure we can at least keep Stadium OU. Not to mention it's already coded. The introduction of true Stadium does intrigue me 3v3 with team preview and I do like the idea.

    Personally I'd introduce full RBY axe off all stadium tiers but OU and introduce true stadium.

    P.S. The fact that both the gen 1 leaders slo fade and Lutra voted yes should speak for something.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2012
  3. Tiba

    Tiba The new Pokemon Professor

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    LOLing about this, How is not unbalanced? Playing vs Alakazam, e.g, the only safe thing you can do is investing in a PP war. I've played a lot of pokemon metagames on my life, since 1998 to be exact, and I've never seen elsewhere one metagame that this thing happens (sometimes in early game).

    And yes, first gen have a lot of centralized moves because we dont have many moves. But idk how Body slam is big overpowering and unbalances the game (same for hyper beam). Sorry, but RBY is the only metagame that matchup is not significant and you dont lose the game even before it begins. RBY is a funny and competitive metagame, different of Stadium which is the greatest loss of time life because 90% of time battle is a Substitute/Recover war.

    And it's not as if I didnt play Stadium a lot. I play, I'm third in this fucking shit ladder.

    And I stand by my opinion, if PO Staff keep Stadium ok, but go to correct rules. This includes team preview in all battles and correct Wrap mechanics.


    Nah, this type of people just prefer this kind of metagame because its easy to win with overpowering strategies.

    --------EDIT-------

    I remembered another thing that destabilizes Stadium metagame. 1-3 turns of Sleep greatly increases the power of Amnesia and Reflect users doing the game more decided by matchup. And this is not the case like slo flade speaks, its not a case of 'fix mechanis' by Game Freak. Idk why all pokemons games to consoles Sleep only lasts 3 turns.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2012
  4. B. Rizzo

    B. Rizzo A relic of the past, given new life.

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    I agree with the above post and the opinions of others in saying that Stadium needs to be converted into a true simulation in that its 3v3 w/ Team Preview. Then Cartridge RBY being the more important and elaborated on metagame be at the forefront. Stadium imo is essentially GSC but w/o no true dedicated physical walls, a broken Psychic type and no Blissey but with all the Stall.
     
  5. Mr. GGFan

    Mr. GGFan Banned

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    The only problem with Stadium is that it was released before cartridge RBY will be.
     
  6. slo fade

    slo fade New Member

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    Tiba. im loling at ur posts. stadium is too stally with sub/recover. when all you do is play gscOU which is pure stallfests all day long.
     
  7. Dr. Fuji

    Dr. Fuji Active Member

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    Don't get me wrong I really respect you but you are a leader in a tier that many people consider dominated by stall it just seems slightly hypocritical for you to say that. Btw awesome peak must have been annoying getting +1 variation.
     
  8. Lutra

    Lutra All Gen Battler/Scripter

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    No, I'm pretty sure people regard Amnesia Slowbro with Surf as safe. Substitute is not an infinite shield, pretty much any physical attack and Seismic Toss break Alakazam's Substitute in one turn, not to mention STAB Blizzard/Surf. Substitute also requires sacrifice of HP, allowing you to do it only so many times - so Zam may be forced to recover instead of repeating Substitute, allowing it to risk being statused when bombarded by the super-25% attacks.

    Alakazam has Psychic as its only decent special attack. It has 16PP. Alakazam's Substitute equally only has 16PP. It's possible to wear it down without resorting to PP wars, it just needs to be tempted to attack. Plus, there's a whole bunch of Psychic-types (Jynx, Exeggutor, Hypno to name a few) that resist it and have some recovery, at least in the form of Rest. And they are bound to have a super-25% attack they can use.
     
  9. Farhangi2

    Farhangi2 New Member

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    Yes keep it.
     
  10. Tiba

    Tiba The new Pokemon Professor

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    Your arguments in favor of keeping Stadium is the best of the thread, seriously

    Let's start with a basic lesson about Stall and Pokemon.

    Stall is a defensive way to playing the game, you have a set of pokemon which allow you to get the most safe switches as possible, set up some Hazards, force your opponent to do some switches of pokemon, attack some times and win. In Stall way to play you have difference CORRECT choices what to do every turn and your main objective is win the game. It's totally difference than occurs in Stadium where your unique correct option VS some kinds of pokemon is finish all of your PPs, if you want to win all of competive games of Stadium you are forced to take this attitude. This is characteristic of a overcentralization of the metagame, not Stall.

    This is why I not use the word Stall one time in my previous posts.

    And man, the misconception that GSC OU it's only a Stall game it's wrong and belonging for people that don't know the metagame or are unskilled players.

    Just because to win a GSC match you didn't need only to switch, attack, switch, attack and my pokemons can take various hits before they fainted does not mean that GSC is pure Stall. I can win in GSC in a manner consistent with less than 100 turns, GSC is like chess you need the correct pieces in correct place in correct time, even if it means do some loop os change of pokemons three or more times. GSC is the only metagame to be ahead of your opponent 3 or 5 moves is fully decisive for win the game.

    Slo fade the only thing you have is fear for with the no keep of Stadium you lose your ladder. You know that you can't take same points in TRUE RBY which is a balanced metagame and have a lot of really good and consistent players.

    Man wake up, ladder is nothing.

    Dude my ladders battle in GSC are +0 and I'm not complaining. I wouldn't cry if ladder resets.


    Sorry Lutra, but in the most part of your post you said ''you can finish the PP of Alakazam, it's only 16 Psychic, it's only 16 Substitutes trololo'' I already know that, I said this in my previous posts and this define a PP war. My Rest/Recover/Softboiled/Seismic Toss vs you Substitute/Psychic. And everything has two sides, the sacrifice of Chansey Tbolt for Seismic Toss for break some Substitute can make you lose to a Amnesia Slowbro for example. This only increases the other part of the problem that is the overpowering of Anmesia abusers because Stadium has only 0-3 turns of sleep.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2012
  11. slo fade

    slo fade New Member

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    true rby. a balanced meta? sure. have you ever played it?
    wrap for 10000000 turns.
    Cheap wins enabled by flawed hyperbeam mechanics.
    balanced? i think not. also when they do come out with cartridge mechanics i'll be happy to slaughter you reguardless and you'll cry about being beaten by kazam and wrap AND hyperbeam instead of just zam.
     
  12. Tiba

    Tiba The new Pokemon Professor

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    Another really nice argument. What's the difference between Stadium and RBY Wrap? Nothing. Dude is no my fault if wrap of Stadium's PO is wrong programmed and is like GSC wrap. Go to emulator and play Stadium for you see that is no difference between RBY and Stadium wrap. The question of wrap is broken or no is discussed more than 10 years and there is no consensus. Rby2k10 players didn't like in general about wrap and ban it, in Smogon is allowed.

    Right here in PO forums have a topic where people discuss this a lot.

    There is no discussion here since RBY's wrap is equal to Stadium's wrap.

    And lol Hyper Beam is a good move in RBY but it isn't overpowering. You can switch for a Rock pokemon, for a Counter user or a fully HP Exeggutor and put the pokemon to Sleep, etc etc
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2012
  13. Mr. GGFan

    Mr. GGFan Banned

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    Almost nobody uses Wrap on the Netbattle server.
     
  14. Lutra

    Lutra All Gen Battler/Scripter

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    @ Tiba

    No, it does not define a PP war. It's a recover/status/attacking/pp (pokemon) war. That happens in every metagame. PP war implies a PP war of attrition by spamming of moves with minimal purpose other than to combat the opponent's pp resources.

    Plus, pp mentioning was not the main part of my post, my initial paragraph was. I knew my second paragraph could be potentially straw manned like it was, so that's why I wrote it second. Taunting/laughing at users does not make what you say any more valid.
     
  15. Tiba

    Tiba The new Pokemon Professor

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    The situation that occurs in Stadium games vs Substituters (with recover) is YES a PP War. Let’s try doing some example to be more precise. Vs an Alakazam I switch to my Starmie for absorb Psychics and finish its PPs with my Recover. Alakazam will try to faint my mon and when it see “I can win vs Starmie” he begins to use T-Wave . Than I stop to use Recover and begin with T-Wave until ours PPs end. This is by your definition a clear situation of PP War.

    For your last post Lutra, your first line about Slowbro is good. But this only increases the other side of coin that is the overpowering of Anmesia users.

    And Lutra I have nothing against YOU, you is a decent player (:
     
  16. slo fade

    slo fade New Member

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    im saying they are going to restore wrap to what it actually is. which is broken. it is currently nerfed on stadium on the servers effectively banning it. and yes everyone knows the way around hyperbeams. which all get wrecked by good prediction so it doesnt really matter in the first place.
    P.S.--I have nothing against you, you is a decent player (in GSC)
     
  17. slo fade

    slo fade New Member

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    also to ur last post concerning slowbro. any psychic type or chansey with recovery reguardless of amnesia will stop zam well. hypno/eggy/slowbro/jynx with rest and other zam/starmie/chansey will take 4 hits from psychic, live it and rest/recover off the damage.
     
  18. Lutra

    Lutra All Gen Battler/Scripter

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    Yes, situations can evolve into PP wars by not giving ground to the opponent. It is an easy and popular way to play safe against Substitute Alakazam.

    Another reason I like Stadium is because it's an untouched metagame. It's a big thrill discovering new sets - I mean who thought Chansey with Substitute would be viable? We need more players discovering more effective sets and influencing other players to use them though. That will make Stadium seem like less of a clone.
     
  19. D-21

    D-21 Lurking

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    Didn't bother to read the walls of text, but not sure if people get the fact that it is either; We keep Stadium when we implement RBY, or we don't. It's not pick one or the other. That's why I voted Yes, because like said, there is no harm in keeping stadium as it does have different mechanics (though, keep only OU and maybe Ubers, but it's really only change is Mew/two)
     
  20. ZodiaK

    ZodiaK Get the fuck off my porch

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    The fact that the current Stadium isn't the real stadium is just another reason we should get rid of it and implement the real RBY. I agree with Tiba's arguments. If they want to add Stadium then they should add the real 3v3 wifi clause stadium and not a creation of a sub-gen
     
  21. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    Having them both would only split the already very small playerbase. I voted no, because Stadium only was a replacement really.
     
  22. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS Active Member

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    The biggest issue is that keeping it will divide an already small playerbase which will ultimately hurt players of BOTH metagames.
     
  23. Lamperi

    Lamperi I see what you did there

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    I see no reason to remove it from the code. It doesn't mean the servers have to implement the tier.
     
  24. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    The main priority should be implementing Cartridge mechanics. However, because (albeit in many places still faulty) Stadium mechanics were for reasons unimaginable developed first, the ones that actually play the Stadium metagame and enjoy it will protest fiercly.

    If I could turn back time I'd release cartridge mechanics prior to Stadium ones, and we'd have no trouble. Because PO decided to do it the other way around, we're having this debate.

    There's no question about it though - Stadium mechanics should still be existing and preferably the tier should remain on the PO server, even if I despise these mechanics.

    What we really need to know is how much delay keeping Stadium in will cause. The first promise the RBY community got was that RBY would exist in some form during 2010, and after several delays, we got the infamously glitched release during Christmas, but still, a release. We also got a promise that Stadium would probably be released during the Easter, possibly even towards the end of winter break '11/'12. Now it's summer and we're still waiting - we've received the promise that RBY will be in "the next release" but we haven't got a clue when that is. For all I know, it could be tomorrow, it could be in August, it could be in 2013. I don't know, but it has resorted to the point where I had to learn C++ to make my own changes, because PO hasn't delivered.

    I am glad to see that we finally have some kind of conversation about this, because PO has disappointed multiple times on the issue of release dates. I'm excited to hear that Blastcore has started work on this and I hope that he'll get the support needed to release cartridge mechanics swiftly.
     
  25. CounterfeitPro

    CounterfeitPro New Member

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    Crap. I voted yes then realized, due to Moogle's post, that I should have voted no....
     
  26. Zerg Rush

    Zerg Rush Pokemon Ranger!

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    Yays!
    Well, when I saw this thread a few days ago, I was sure of losing this one. Well, We're winning! yays!
    Don't thrash Stadium. Its a nostalgic shit for me D:
     
  27. Polo1

    Polo1 New Member

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    Please keep it both. Why can't you keep it both? I love the current Stadium tier. The people who didn't want to play Stadium, don't play it, and leave people like me the possibility of playing our favourite metagame. If you prefer true RBY, you can play it if they introduce it too, even if they don't remove Stadium. And I prefer Stadium with 6 vs 6, honestly.
     
  28. waterwizard

    waterwizard New Member

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    Stadium mechanics are horrible. However, some people apparently enjoy that agonizing metagame so you might as well keep it, unless it will complicate things or provide extra work for the developers. Voting Yes.

    Dying to have Cart Mechanics...
     
  29. Hobbes2

    Hobbes2 Aren't I dead or something

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    I'm assuming it's not going to be removed from the code (well lamp said it wont which is cool) because some server's might want to have it.

    Honestly, the split the playerbase argument is a joke because

    1) Implying stadium even has a playerbase
    2) Even if some people like stadium, they probably like RBY more.
    3) If someone who loves stadium loses it, they probably won't be playing RBY anyway
    4) Implying the RBY ladder is going to be alive, which, after about 2 weeks its implemented, it wont be, i'm predicting
    5) After the ladder is dead and it's only played in tours, whats the harm in keeping both then? It's not like if stadium exists a RBY tour won't fill, or if stadium exists the ladder is going to be dead
     
  30. Blastcore

    Blastcore Developer

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    We'll keep both.
     
  31. Lamperi

    Lamperi I see what you did there

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    Both will be kept.
     
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