[HGSS] A note on bans

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Jørgen, May 28, 2012.

  1. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2011
    Messages:
    279
    Likes Received:
    27
    Posting this here because I had an observation to make about bans in newfangled generations in general that was inspired by the Salamence hullabaloo, but I didn't want to hijack that discussion with a meta-post about the nature of bans so here this is!


    First, to start off with a quote I found in that thread:

    I feel like this should be the approach to bans: first, determine if the metagame is unhealthy, and if it is, decide whether it is due to a) a recent ban (usually not the case), or b) an overpowered mon. Only once you've determined that the metagame is unhealthy can you begin looking for bans to implement or suspects to re-introduce.

    I say this because a lot of tiering decisions in the newer generations seem to be about looking at certain Pokemon in and of themselves, listing their qualities, then saying "See!? this thing is totally broken!" A Pokemon can certainly seem overcentralizing if it's the only thing you talk about for a month! Bans and unbans necessarily entail instability in the rules of the game, which hinders the development of depth in the metagame and should thus be avoided if possible. If bans and unbans are to be implemented, we first have to be damn sure that the metagame as a whole is kind of unplayable. If so, we then decide on bans or unbans to propose and whether those proposed tiering changes would actually make the metagame better before going ahead with them. If not, then we don't try to fix what isn't broken.

    I'm not opposed to the concept of "test bans" either, but they're handled in a weird way at the moment. We should really try to implement a suspect/test ban ladder or tier instead of simply implementing global bans for a finite amount of time; the latter kind of defeats the purpose of holding off on an official ban, which is avoiding unnecessary instability in the "official" rules of the game by which everybody has to play.
     
  2. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,896
    Likes Received:
    888
    Well, I'm going to have to step aside for a minute and disagree with you on this:

    Honestly, I haven't been seeing what you're describing, except for this Salamence retest which isn't in the new generation. Sure, when we dive into suspect tests we of course list what the individual pokemon can do; that's the logical way to open up a suspect discussion. And, of course there are going to be those few people that look at damage from calcs and have had their ass severely beaten by the suspect in question by not being adequately prepared, but by and large people actually do look at the affect a pokemon has on the tier as a whole. We don't just ban pokemon due to "Oh look, it hits hard and can beat some of its counters!" in BW, we also look at what it actually limits. Like people have in other generations.

    It seems like that whole paragraph is just ruled by the past generations, actually. You have to remember something about BW: there is a hell of a lot more pokemon to choose from in any tier this generation. It's nigh on impossible to have every single pokemon be balanced and be healthy for the metagame without at least a ban taking place, since something that is significantly more powerful than anything else in the tier is more likely to drop down. Of course we're finally getting to the point now where we probably won't have to ban anything anymore.

    I also disagree about unbans only happening when the metagame is unbalanced or unplayable in some way. Actually, it should be the opposite; once the tier has settled for a good 2 months or so, and(in the lower tiers) you start receiving the same pokemon from drops from the tier above you, then you should start retesting things if people are pushing for it. The reason is the fact that these tiers are ever changing, and you might have gotten even one pokemon from OU or UU that completely shifted the metagame around, and then it stayed after the next tier shift as well. Pokemon like Moltres are perfect examples of this, since the metagame shifted enough in 4 months that it wasn't that broken anymore, while it dominated the tier back then. And that's partly due to new pokemon moving out of and into the tier.

    Of course that last paragraph doesn't apply to OU at all, but not a lot of bans have been happening in there so I can't see why you'd be referring to it.

    I also don't see why you posted this in this sub forum, since this seems to be tailored to BW. Unless you meant that the Salamence retest was inspired by how this gen's suspect testing works, in which case you need to flip that opening sentence around. Plus it's not nearly as sporadic as that.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2012