I strongly think Double Team and Minimize should be banned in all tiers under the following categories: Stadium, GSC and Advance. Here, are the reasons I've thought of for banning the evasion moves: Banned in all major DP and BW tiers De facto banned in Stadium, GSC and Advance tiers Originally banned in RBY, GSC and Advance tiers Many believe they create an undesirable metagame Here, are the reasons I've thought of for allowing the evasion moves: Less restrictions Freedom gained from less restrictions So basically, I think the reasons for banning them outweigh the reasons for allowing them.
Can vouch for RBY and GSC. They have always been de facto banned. So, at least for laddering, they should be banned. Reasons: -History -Unhealthy effect on metagame -Unpleasant interplay Against: -Excessive bans limit the metagame Thesis: Evasion moves greatly shift the metagame to one where luck is the primary factor in a victory, instead of a secondary/tertiary factor. They also make the game unpleasant, for similar reasons.
I agree evasion introduces far to much luck into the game especially in stadium where many pokemon have a spare move slot that they can easily give up for a evasion move.
This hasn't happened already? Huh, I must be unobservant. I thought there was a thread ages ago about at least banning evasion in GSC, and that action was taken thereafter. Guess I better abuse Shuckle while I still can.
They're NOT banned at the moment? Also, sorta related: http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/showthread.php?10802-OHKOs-and-Evasion A minor discussion that was held when Stadium was introduced.
Really, what is with the admins/mods and messing with established bans that were done when the given meta was consistently played for generally obvious reasons.
http://pokemonperfect.co.uk/poserver/site/tiers.php This is how I can see the tiers really easy, I type a command on the server to update to the latest PO tiers and then look at the page.
Just a quick note on this, I also support the idea of a ban, I know how nasty evasion moves are when abused, and the freedom point is a non-point when it makes an unhealthy or luck-based metagame.
I've actually bothered to test out Evasion in ADV and its not broken. Not many things in ADV can get around their normal counters even with a free turn or two. I even tried Baton Passing Evasion, and it didn't really succeed either. If we plan to judge Evasion on its brokenness, it doesn't deserve a ban. I never bothered to test it in GSC or Stadium OU (I did it in LC for shits and giggles). Of course most people will just say that it should be banned since it was banned (by certain communities) then.
@ Xdevo, is that the full extent of what you've tested? Because I think that only covers the fairness of the ability to sweep, not the fairness of the defensive aspect of making stall harder to break. Nevertheless, every analysis I've seen assumes evasion is banned, so there's going to be no end to people thinking it is at the moment unless new analyses crop up that consider it usable. I think it should be consistent with the majority of analyses.
If it was banned back then, then it should be banned now. (I mean seriously? I feel like this has happened with old tiers far too often then they should.)
Stall really doesn't gain much from using Double Team (aside from Celebi, but Celebi is already powerful as hell anyways). Stall usually (almost never) relies on getting a 2-3HKO. So the extra (it never actually got more than 3 misses for me) few turns isn't really going to help, especially now that the abuser is down a moveslot. You might be able to pull off some stupid DT, Sub, Toxic, Recovery move set, but that faces plenty of problems no matter what its used on. Most analyses don't actually mention evasion moves, because they are so unreliable in metagames. This is especially true in ADV and backwards, since you could much, much more often afford a miss or two than in DP or BW's fast paced environments. Also, If I recall correctly, not all ADV players actually had DT and Minimize banned, I don't think its fair to adopt some outdated, non-unanimous bans that by-and-large were never tested. We got rid of the ADV NU NFE ban in this same vein, and it hasn't produced any problems to most people. I don't see why we should ban these without at least testing them.
At least let me tell you how broken they are in Gen 1. No PHazing, only actual Hazing, and the best Pokémon to get Haze is Vaporeon who's demolished in OU.
Thats also for ADV Also we shouldnt change old metagames. Its not because they are unreliable (which they arent at all), its because they were banned in competitive play. Also, any competitive tourney had evasion clause, and in nearly every relevant server, it was banned via script.
Speaking solely for Adv here, Evasion moves allow random no-skillers to just boost up and have a decent shot at doing considerable damage. It requires no thought, no consideration, and not even a specific Pokemon- just pick something, Double Team and Toxic away. It's not a broken strategy, but the fact that making it work requires almost no mental input from the user, and its chances of success are pretty much down to the RNG(barring Haze) is just downright insulting when facing people who actually want to play an enjoyable game. Yes, play to win, but the whole point is to make the match enjoyable for both players, and this generally involves playing well, as opposed to just being a prick and not even bothering to attempt to outplay your opponent.
Why the hell are these not banned already? There is no reason that an element of luck such as this needs to stay. Sand Veil / Snow Cloak aren't banned because nothing abusing them other than Garchomp is OP. Other elements of luck aren't banned because it would require changing game mechanics. IMO, Evasion =/= Shell Smash in terms of power. Nobody uses evasion because they think it is banned. Evasion can be boosted to a point where the odds are heavily in your favor in that your opponent has a very bad chance of hitting you. GET THIS OUT OF THE GAME.
I've been asked to post on this subject. I agree with the TC, these moves have been banned before and should still be banned. Reasons have been mentioned already, so I won't bother repeating them.
The problem as I see it is that the mods refuse to acknowledge this topic. There's a wide-spread agreement among almost everyone playing the relevant tiers that evasion moves should be banned. This still hasn't happened almost three weeks after the creation of the topic, and I believe that it's because there's a lack of mods that actively follow what's happening outside of Gen 5 (perhaps Gen 4 as well). I've bought it up with admins on the server and linked them here, to no avail. I'm frustrated.
(15:42:58) pokemonnerd: Oh yeah, Crystal, when you have some spare time could you do this: (15:42:59) pokemonnerd: http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/sho...vasion-Moves-in-all-Stadium-GSC-and-ADV-Tiers (15:43:07) pokemonnerd: Or should I start bothering lamp? (15:43:11) +Crystal Moogle: nah i'll do it (15:43:15) pokemonnerd: k Give it a day or two, and it should be done. She'll get on it. If the server crashes today then that means she did it.
Ok. Well the files updated, but I'm not reloading tier yet, because I still fear the crash. Though tiers should be getting updated tomorrow (for OU/UU/etc), so it should be done by then.