[ADV] Ban Evasion Moves in all Stadium, GSC and ADV Tiers

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Lutra, Apr 10, 2012.

  1. Lutra

    Lutra All Gen Battler/Scripter

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2010
    Messages:
    509
    Likes Received:
    188
    PO Trainer Name:
    Lutra
    I strongly think Double Team and Minimize should be banned in all tiers under the following categories: Stadium, GSC and Advance.

    Here, are the reasons I've thought of for banning the evasion moves:

    • Banned in all major DP and BW tiers
    • De facto banned in Stadium, GSC and Advance tiers
    • Originally banned in RBY, GSC and Advance tiers
    • Many believe they create an undesirable metagame

    Here, are the reasons I've thought of for allowing the evasion moves:

    • Less restrictions
    • Freedom gained from less restrictions

    So basically, I think the reasons for banning them outweigh the reasons for allowing them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2012
  2. waterwizard

    waterwizard New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2011
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Can vouch for RBY and GSC. They have always been de facto banned. So, at least for laddering, they should be banned.

    Reasons:

    -History
    -Unhealthy effect on metagame
    -Unpleasant interplay

    Against:

    -Excessive bans limit the metagame

    Thesis:

    Evasion moves greatly shift the metagame to one where luck is the primary factor in a victory, instead of a secondary/tertiary factor. They also make the game unpleasant, for similar reasons.
     
  3. Dr. Fuji

    Dr. Fuji Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,471
    Likes Received:
    1
    PO Trainer Name:
    Dr. Fuji
    I agree evasion introduces far to much luck into the game especially in stadium where many pokemon have a spare move slot that they can easily give up for a evasion move.
     
  4. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2011
    Messages:
    279
    Likes Received:
    27
    This hasn't happened already? Huh, I must be unobservant. I thought there was a thread ages ago about at least banning evasion in GSC, and that action was taken thereafter.

    Guess I better abuse Shuckle while I still can.
     
  5. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2011
    Messages:
    936
    Likes Received:
    1,006
    PO Trainer Name:
    Isa
  6. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,539
    Likes Received:
    0
    Really, what is with the admins/mods and messing with established bans that were done when the given meta was consistently played for generally obvious reasons.
     
  7. Lutra

    Lutra All Gen Battler/Scripter

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2010
    Messages:
    509
    Likes Received:
    188
    PO Trainer Name:
    Lutra
  8. Plumbum

    Plumbum The Ultimate n00b

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2011
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    0
    Just a quick note on this, I also support the idea of a ban, I know how nasty evasion moves are when abused, and the freedom point is a non-point when it makes an unhealthy or luck-based metagame.
     
  9. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,526
    Likes Received:
    1,617
    I've actually bothered to test out Evasion in ADV and its not broken. Not many things in ADV can get around their normal counters even with a free turn or two. I even tried Baton Passing Evasion, and it didn't really succeed either. If we plan to judge Evasion on its brokenness, it doesn't deserve a ban. I never bothered to test it in GSC or Stadium OU (I did it in LC for shits and giggles).

    Of course most people will just say that it should be banned since it was banned (by certain communities) then.
     
  10. Lutra

    Lutra All Gen Battler/Scripter

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2010
    Messages:
    509
    Likes Received:
    188
    PO Trainer Name:
    Lutra
    @ Xdevo, is that the full extent of what you've tested? Because I think that only covers the fairness of the ability to sweep, not the fairness of the defensive aspect of making stall harder to break.

    Nevertheless, every analysis I've seen assumes evasion is banned, so there's going to be no end to people thinking it is at the moment unless new analyses crop up that consider it usable. I think it should be consistent with the majority of analyses.
     
  11. -Manaphy--

    -Manaphy-- Overconsumption

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    697
    Likes Received:
    1
    If it was banned back then, then it should be banned now. (I mean seriously? I feel like this has happened with old tiers far too often then they should.)
     
  12. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,526
    Likes Received:
    1,617
    Stall really doesn't gain much from using Double Team (aside from Celebi, but Celebi is already powerful as hell anyways). Stall usually (almost never) relies on getting a 2-3HKO. So the extra (it never actually got more than 3 misses for me) few turns isn't really going to help, especially now that the abuser is down a moveslot. You might be able to pull off some stupid DT, Sub, Toxic, Recovery move set, but that faces plenty of problems no matter what its used on.

    Most analyses don't actually mention evasion moves, because they are so unreliable in metagames. This is especially true in ADV and backwards, since you could much, much more often afford a miss or two than in DP or BW's fast paced environments.

    Also, If I recall correctly, not all ADV players actually had DT and Minimize banned, I don't think its fair to adopt some outdated, non-unanimous bans that by-and-large were never tested. We got rid of the ADV NU NFE ban in this same vein, and it hasn't produced any problems to most people. I don't see why we should ban these without at least testing them.
     
  13. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2011
    Messages:
    936
    Likes Received:
    1,006
    PO Trainer Name:
    Isa
    At least let me tell you how broken they are in Gen 1. No PHazing, only actual Hazing, and the best Pokémon to get Haze is Vaporeon who's demolished in OU.
     
  14. M Dragon

    M Dragon Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2010
    Messages:
    290
    Likes Received:
    120
    Thats also for ADV

    Also we shouldnt change old metagames.

    Its not because they are unreliable (which they arent at all), its because they were banned in competitive play.
    Also, any competitive tourney had evasion clause, and in nearly every relevant server, it was banned via script.
     
  15. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    305
    Likes Received:
    0
    Speaking solely for Adv here, Evasion moves allow random no-skillers to just boost up and have a decent shot at doing considerable damage. It requires no thought, no consideration, and not even a specific Pokemon- just pick something, Double Team and Toxic away. It's not a broken strategy, but the fact that making it work requires almost no mental input from the user, and its chances of success are pretty much down to the RNG(barring Haze) is just downright insulting when facing people who actually want to play an enjoyable game. Yes, play to win, but the whole point is to make the match enjoyable for both players, and this generally involves playing well, as opposed to just being a prick and not even bothering to attempt to outplay your opponent.
     
  16. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2011
    Messages:
    936
    Likes Received:
    1,006
    PO Trainer Name:
    Isa
    Bumping this because I want a mod to notice it.
     
  17. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,526
    Likes Received:
    1,617
    You should complain to the superadmins on the server, that is how I usually got things done.
     
  18. pokemon0078

    pokemon0078 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2011
    Messages:
    151
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why the hell are these not banned already? There is no reason that an element of luck such as this needs to stay. Sand Veil / Snow Cloak aren't banned because nothing abusing them other than Garchomp is OP. Other elements of luck aren't banned because it would require changing game mechanics. IMO, Evasion =/= Shell Smash in terms of power. Nobody uses evasion because they think it is banned. Evasion can be boosted to a point where the odds are heavily in your favor in that your opponent has a very bad chance of hitting you. GET THIS OUT OF THE GAME.
     
  19. Ashton Michaels

    Ashton Michaels Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2010
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    1
    I've been asked to post on this subject. I agree with the TC, these moves have been banned before and should still be banned. Reasons have been mentioned already, so I won't bother repeating them.
     
  20. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2011
    Messages:
    936
    Likes Received:
    1,006
    PO Trainer Name:
    Isa
    The problem as I see it is that the mods refuse to acknowledge this topic. There's a wide-spread agreement among almost everyone playing the relevant tiers that evasion moves should be banned. This still hasn't happened almost three weeks after the creation of the topic, and I believe that it's because there's a lack of mods that actively follow what's happening outside of Gen 5 (perhaps Gen 4 as well).

    I've bought it up with admins on the server and linked them here, to no avail. I'm frustrated.
     
  21. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2010
    Messages:
    3,204
    Likes Received:
    698
    PO Trainer Name:
    Kat
    Try pming Crystal Moogle, that is the best way to get something done here.
     
  22. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2011
    Messages:
    936
    Likes Received:
    1,006
    PO Trainer Name:
    Isa
    Oh, I spoke to him. We had a conversation, nothing happened.
     
  23. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,896
    Likes Received:
    888
    (15:42:58) pokemonnerd: Oh yeah, Crystal, when you have some spare time could you do this:
    (15:42:59) pokemonnerd: http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/sho...vasion-Moves-in-all-Stadium-GSC-and-ADV-Tiers
    (15:43:07) pokemonnerd: Or should I start bothering lamp?
    (15:43:11) +Crystal Moogle: nah i'll do it
    (15:43:15) pokemonnerd: k

    Give it a day or two, and it should be done. She'll get on it. If the server crashes today then that means she did it.
     
  24. Crystal Moogle

    Crystal Moogle Ayaya~ Administrator Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    3,205
    Likes Received:
    531
    PO Trainer Name:
    Hanako
    Ok. Well the files updated, but I'm not reloading tier yet, because I still fear the crash. Though tiers should be getting updated tomorrow (for OU/UU/etc), so it should be done by then.
     
  25. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2011
    Messages:
    936
    Likes Received:
    1,006
    PO Trainer Name:
    Isa
    Whoops regarding gender and <3 regarding changes. Thanks.
     
  26. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    305
    Likes Received:
    0