The Swordfish Conundrum

Discussion in 'PO Classics' started by PO Gold, Mar 20, 2012.

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  1. PO Gold

    PO Gold Banned

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    As you may have noticed, many members of staff and regular users have recently quit PO with little explanation. We feel that every user on PO has a right to know why we have quit, and what has gone on. As users we have done our utmost to contribute to the community, and improve it whenever we can. The owners of PO clearly could not care less about their contributors (unless they are a developer!). Nor do they trust or respect them.

    First I would like to bring to your attention the Moderation Guidelines. Now you may not think this affects you, the user, but it does. The way the rules are enforced directly affect you. The Moderation Guidelines were written by the owners, and they expect the Moderators and Administrators to follow the guidelines at all times. So, what about the owners themselves?

    Originally Posted by Darkness
    In essence, the owners can do what they want. How they expect everyone to respect them when they do not respect the rest of the community by not following their own rules is beyond me. Furthermore "We know better on how to control ourselves.” This is so untrue it's almost comical. On two separate occasions owners have banned users (both users were ex moderators who had spoken out against the owners) for being kicked from a private channel. If the moderators did the same then they would lose their power instantly. This does not indicate control. This points to a distinct lack of control and more of a personal attack. It is stated in the moderation guidelines you must not let personal feelings get in the way of moderation. Alas, the owners are above the rules they created.

    Now, onto the issue of private channels. What you think is a "private" channel is not "private" at all. First of all, you are not allowed to control who is there, even if you created the channel. If the owners want to be there, tough luck. Kick them at your own peril. Secondly, there is a command that enables Admins and Owners to spy on private channels. By taking a look through the PO Scripts (which are publicly available) you will find a command /watch. This enables the user to see the chat of ANY channel they wish. Not so private anymore. Oh and there are also the server logs, which the owners can and will use against you, taking what you say in a private channel and quoting it out of context.

    Furthermore, it seems the owners cannot step back and let the people they appoint to look after tiers and the like do their job. Almost every single one of the OU tier leaders decisions were questioned, often in a very condescending matter without proper research taking place first. Whenever a decision involving the Dream World tiers took place (see: Wifi Clause in DW UU, removing DW UU, Clear Skies), if an owner did not agree with the decision, they would make baseless accusations against the tier leaders, often trying to reverse the decision. If someone disagrees with the owner, they would have their power removed mid discussion (see this log: http://pastebin.com/KkR9zQsW).

    As a side note, we would like to highlight the owners’ hypocrisy. Recently, an owner made it clear that insulting another user should result in a ban, regardless of the severity of the insult. Two well-known members of staff took this on board, and then posted in a Ban Requests topic (private staff forum) logs of a vast number of other staff insulting other members. Both of these posts were met with trolling infractions, resulting in one member being banned from the forums. These users were following the owner's rules. Following this, in the run up to March 9th the very same owner helped to organize a troll on the entire server, which I am sure many of you are aware of. How can someone expect their staff to respect them and follow the rules they put in place when these actions are commonplace? All complaints about this incident were either met with accusatory one-line answers or just outright ignored, eventually resulting in the respective thread being locked.

    These incidents are not one offs, they have been going on for a while and are not rare. Members of staff have been de authed for speaking out against the owners. Everyone should be aware of this.
     
    Annoying Orange likes this.
  2. Xenolize

    Xenolize Revengeance

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    The nicest way for me to put it: You must be very dumb if you have no idea what they're really/might be doing. Anyways, I think a staff member will delete this post since I did the same thing on a different thread, until I caught on with what was happening.
     
  3. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    lol so this is what you guys told me you were up to.

    No, all of this is actually true. Although it probably will be deleted asap.
     
  4. Johnidel

    Johnidel Chirp chirp

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    I find it sad this will be deleted before a lot of people can see it, simply so certain people can cover their tracks. So technically the deleting of this thread will only prove further that there is something wrong with PO. Check back in a day, this won't be here. Feel free to post your opinions, you won't be infracted(that was a joke if you clearly don't understand sarcasm over the internet).
     
  5. T-Dogg

    T-Dogg Member

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    Good post guys. I enjoyed it.
     
  6. CrashinBoomBang

    CrashinBoomBang :{|}

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  7. Django

    Django UNCHAINED

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  8. Key

    Key Avid Ideologist

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    The most riveting, thought-provoking post I've read in years. The post gave me a strong understanding of the multi-faceted nature of the problem with leadership on PO. User PO Gold really hit the nail on the head with this one.

    In short A++ would read again.
     
  9. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    Johnidel's post is also good imo
     
  10. marmoteo

    marmoteo Member

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    Controversial! Can't see this lasting, but good on whoever wrote it for trying take this issue out into the open, as it is not so much a staff issue but a general issue when you look at the bigger picture.
     
  11. Annoying Orange

    Annoying Orange sweet creature Social Media Rep Social Media Rep

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    One of the quitters obviously posted this under fake profile. I understand everything that was said, but you have to learn to deal with stuff and not be a quitter.... GG anyways.
     
  12. Blitzamirin

    Blitzamirin Waluigi! Number one!

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    ^ this pretty much
     
  13. Key

    Key Avid Ideologist

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    Figure that out did you?
     
  14. Annoying Orange

    Annoying Orange sweet creature Social Media Rep Social Media Rep

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    Not sure if being "smart" or not...but yeah I did, it was pretty simple.
     
  15. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    This is a lot easier to say when you have no idea what happens behind closed doors, to be completely honest. It's pointless to stay with a community when nothing about how it's run will change.
     
  16. TacoBell

    TacoBell i'm a noob ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    stronf thread is stronf, seems like everything has been said~
     
  17. Roku

    Roku sup nerds

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    This sort of toxic leadership is the only thing that is keeping PO from being great. Not a single person will respect you if you do not adhere to the rules that you set. I am glad to see that this is getting into the open. Coyo's leadership is driving away the people who actually help PO do things. ie mods, tier leaders, SAs, devs, etc. If this continues it will be no surprise when PO dies completely.
     
  18. Galblade

    Galblade FAT PRINCESS

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  19. SteelEdges

    SteelEdges The Poll Dancer

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    "When the President does it, that means it is not illegal." - Richard Nixon

    If you know your history, Nixon was a corrupt President. Do you see the metaphor? As Avatar Roku said, it's toxic. A community leader is just that: the leader of a community. It is not a dictator. Dictatorships crash because no leader is perfect - a country's leader or a Pokemon server's owners.

    When a bad decision is made, then what? What are you going to do? Are you going to criticize them?

    See how well they respond to criticism?

    Are you going to just grit your teeth and pray they'll change?

    This isn't said meanly. There needs to be...a wake-up call. And I hope this is it.

    Good luck to everyone.
     
  20. Mattstah

    Mattstah Emotional Sickness

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    still waiting for post to be removed
     
  21. Roku

    Roku sup nerds

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    (22:11:10) ±Chatot: King Eternal called for 60 Minutes Of Silence in Tohjo Falls!
    (22:11:22) ±Chatot: Amarillo Caballero cancelled the Minutes of Silence in tohjofalls!
    King Eternal banned Amarillo Caballero!

    That is all.
     
  22. Mattstah

    Mattstah Emotional Sickness

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    http://pastebin.com/kG1hLzbY

    tl;dr look at roku's post or

    Eternal constantly called for silence in Tohjo. Heather stopped it, Eternal repeated, AC stopped it, repeat, AC stops it, ban.
    A moderator. Banned. Just because he was doing the right thing.

    Seriously, if this isn't power abuse, I don't know what is.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2012
  23. Saltopus

    Saltopus P.I. Saltopus

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    It saddens me to an extreme extent to see people in such high authority treat others in such a poor and underwhelming manner. Not only users who choose to enjoy themselves, but mods and auths who wish nothing more than to expand and better this community. With this logic in mind, one would think the owner's would commit nothing short of 100% to better their community, yet in hindsight we see nothing short of personal gain through exploit of a mass community and it's diverse members.
    I'd hate nothing more than to see the PO server dissipate into a shell of it's more apathetic auth holders.
    To the mods and auths who have done everything in their power to keep this ship afloat, I thank you for everything you've done.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2012
  24. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    http://pastebin.com/ypsRV2PB

    This tends to prove the point of this thread, and part of the reason why I left. Was just dropping in because someone told me to look at what was going on.

    The people on top of this community are just horrible at handling situations, and this is just a sample of what happens among the staff. None of it sees the light of day(normal users don't see it) 99% of the time, however.
     
  25. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS Active Member

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    Agree COMPLETELY.
     
  26. Annoying Orange

    Annoying Orange sweet creature Social Media Rep Social Media Rep

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    I do think we need more skillful Admins. This kind of abuse is just...saddening. I do not agree with everyone quitting, but I do agree that this abuse needs to stop. Either the current Admins need to straighten up their problems, or give up their jobs.
    'nuff said.
     
  27. Serpentine

    Serpentine Member

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    I really just don't know. With the fact that Eternal has now banned two different auth members at two different times (Platinum and Amarillo), and is still remaining an admin, I really just don't know. PO is falling apart.
     
  28. Roku

    Roku sup nerds

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    I would also like to point out that this has been going on for quite some time. Coyo, for as long as I have known about him, has just decided on his own behalf instead of what would be healthy for the community. I can see that most of the more recent posts have been about the Eternal situation, but that was far from an isolated incident.
     
  29. SteelEdges

    SteelEdges The Poll Dancer

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    Eternal banned Ama for stopping the ban and lied about it. He said there was a bug that kept unsilencing the chat. He's as corrupt as the owners. Guys, it's a dictatorship.

    I have a poem.

    Please don't assume I'm being mean here. Maybe I am. But if you've seen what I seen...sometimes we need to criticize authority.

    All Pokemon Players Are Equal, But Some Are More Equal Than Others

    checkmate, a poem that gets apathetic halfway through

    Checkmate: it comes from the Arabic - the king is dead
    Because now we've all seen inside the king's head.
    Rule 1: make sure you stop the speaking - God knows
    when people start talking, you need to keep those
    muckrakers, those filthy swine who dare to speak

    "He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
    - Animal Farm


    to the evils you've done. Big Brother King, may I get a peek


    You lied about Oak. You told us he was deauthed. You told us the others were as well. You didn't tell them it was voluntary.
    You would prefer them not know.
    Now they're all gonna know.


    into your conscience? or dare I say it's empty, replaced by

    "come to the channel" and the capacity to lie
    As you can see, I had clear reason to silence the chat which was very chaotic at the time. Amarillo Caballero kept unsilencing the chat, which I have no idea why in the world he would. Like seriously, how are you going to go against a higher auth's decision of silencing the chat. I had clear precedence of doing so, and so I momentarily banned Amarillo Caballero to stop from what he was doing.
    (23:52:24) -: (14:51:51) +???: No
    (23:52:24) -: (14:51:54) !!!: no.
    (23:52:24) -: (14:52:03) +???: I unbanned Amarillo Caballero
    (23:52:29) -: So Eternal lied


    I don't know you, King Eternal.
    But you're banning people for criticizing you, for halting your plans to stop the critcizing, and this was all brought on you.
    Why?
    you're a liar. you've lied about Oak, Amarillo - all to preserve your image.
    I guess I don't really care about making this a poem
    How about that.
    Just like you don't care about the community.
    The problem is: We do.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2012
    Joyverse and NAVIDAD PIRATE like this.
  30. marmoteo

    marmoteo Member

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    Alright, lets not get sidetracked into making personal attacks at those in charge. The main issue here is how the place is run, mainly focusing on how the rules are enforced. I thought this was a call for the community to put their thoughts on the fact that Owners are exempt from the Rules (or Moderation Guidelines, for that matter).

    I think the particular issue between Eternal and Amarillo should be handled in another place - although I've seen enough upset people to know that this is an issue that will not be resolved swiftly.

    I would not go as far as to say PO is going down. It's not going to disappear. Yes, it's going to take a blow by losing a lot of their main contributors, but the main issue here is that PO will stand for something that is (according to many) wrong. It will stand for being a community that is run by people who fell into the power creep, by acknowledging that they're exempt of the rules they made for their own server. And this will seep through all the layers of the community. The new wave of 'leaders/authority' members who replace those who left will probably adopt an unhealthy attitude. One that doesn't encourage participation and contribution as to how the place is run, one that holds into their positions for the sake of the position, not for the sake of the betterment of the community.

    A good community should be dynamic and should welcome change if it is for the best. Change about how things are run, and the position of different authority members. A good community shouldn't encourage people to simply acknowledge those with authority as 'untouchable'.
     
  31. Ozma

    Ozma Grunt in the machine

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    Marmoteo just made me shed a manly tear.
     
  32. Annoying Orange

    Annoying Orange sweet creature Social Media Rep Social Media Rep

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    If/if not I adopt just a pinch of authority, I would NOT adopt an unhealthy attitude. I have been here since the beginning and have nothing but love for the server. The people who run it need to show the same attitude towards it and not try to be powerful tyrants.
     
  33. Johnidel

    Johnidel Chirp chirp

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    I agree with Marm on how the Eternal thing should be handled somewhere else. But it shouldn't be disregarded because it is a clear cut example of how deplorable certain leaders may act. Simply put, certain people are putting their opinions above others, and no one wants to be a part of a community ran by people who can ban/deauth you just because your opinion is different from theirs. The longer this goes on, the worse PO will get. We have lost the majority of tier leaders, and forum contributors over the past month, and they were the main supporters of the community. Do you like being disregarded because you have a pokeball and they have a masterball?
     
  34. "Bad To The Bone" Balla

    "Bad To The Bone" Balla so B.A.D.

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    I'm very glad someone posted this. How the server is run is something that not only concerns the authority, but all the users.

    The rules are something there becuase they were decided that they were beneficial to the community by the owners. the Moderators were put there to enforce said rules.

    what i want to know is: how do the owners of the server expect the users to obey the rules, and the moderators to enforce them, if the leaders that put them in place do not obey them.

    This puts me, who was recently given moderator status, in a position where I am not motivated to enforce these rules (and i'm sure other mods feel the same) because the owners feel like they are above them.

    I'm sure all the users feel the same about obeying the rules.
     
  35. [KG]Patrick

    [KG]Patrick New Member

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    It just seems strange to me that the owners would demand for everyone else to follow the rules, when they don't do it themselves. Then, they ban anyone who defies them. Sounds like a dictatorship to me.
     
  36. Big Cheese

    Big Cheese Member

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    Ah, I see why everyone's quitting. PO was great while it lasted.
     
  37. mastersalsa

    mastersalsa New Member

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    Why is it the Swordfish Conundrum, and not, say, the Starfish Conundrum? Just a little something for people to think about.
     
  38. SockPuppet

    SockPuppet lmao

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    Simply put, I would agree with the majority of the content in this post and would deem it suitable as being the best reply so far. Honestly, I could see that since most of the main contributors are now gone, there will be a slack in activity in almost all respects, progress wise and simple event wise, which will effect the userbase in the slightest way possible, if possible; which it is.

    The new wave of staff that would replace this loss of staff, which should happen, as grievances normally call for replacements in standard conformity, will, in a way, have the same streaks that we see in the current staff. I'm worried that inofitself, this will not benefit the community. Although now with this conflict going on, I'm not sure that any new staff would be on the side of an 'unhealthy attitude' if they are partial to the pro side of this argument.

    I was rather late into being brought into this controversy, but I can say that I understand it. PO will be hurt by this, but I'm sure through some sort of community management, it'll pull through.
     
  39. Kyrk

    Kyrk KACAW

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    Surprised the thread hasn't been deleted yet, I wonder if it'll be able to live for a full 24 hours...

    I would post most of my opinion, but the majority of the posts before have already taken the words out of my mouth (and probably with better wording and context.)

    This is supposed to be a more community-oriented server, but if you try using your power to roughly play with the community like puppets on a string, those strings will eventually start to snap, and the community will slowly break apart, piece by piece.

    Let's just hope that when this thread gets discovered and deleted that the forum members that posted opinions on here don't get infracted/banned in the process, as that won't be doing PO any favors...
     
  40. Amarillo Caballero

    Amarillo Caballero Member

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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    I think this is the most important point being made in this thread.
     
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