[RBY] Tiers

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Isa, Jan 17, 2012.

  1. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    Currently there is a lack of tiers on PO. We have Ubers and OU, that's it.

    There have been tiers established since long ago that I added back in September to the Wiki that I suggest should be implemented: http://wiki.pokemon-online.eu/view/1st_Gen_Tier_List

    These tiers have been tested by the RBY2K10 community for a long time and we find them stable. All tiers are good metagames, including the BL tier. If required, the BL tier can be renamed UU and the UU tier renamed LU - what's important is that these metagames are all very enjoyable with nothing broken within each tier.

    I formally suggest that the tiers currently on the Wiki are to be implemented as soon as possible, with possible changes happening due to Stadium mechanics.
     
  2. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    I do believe that an actual cartridge RBY is to be developed in the (not too far) future. I believe that the goal was to wait for the cartridge tier first, then add the UU tier.

    Personally, I see no reason to add the ubers tier. We all know that the only reason for the tier is to abuse Mewtwo; it would be on every single team. The entire metagame would be based around trying to set-up or prevent the opposing Amnesia Mewtwo.
     
  3. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    RBY was supposed to be released almost a year ago. I am not going to wait silently for the cartridge to be implemented when we could play alternate metagames in the meantime. It's easy to add them, it just isn't done. Just because you have no interest in the other tiers doesn't mean others won't. Cartridge will be released - I do know this. I don't know when though, RBY has been postponed by a year already. Waiting another year isn't an option.

    Mewtwo cannot deal with all threats at once. Slowbro and Starmie stalls/beats non-Thunderbolt variants, Chansey can enter a freeze war with Mewtwo if he doesn't pack Ice Beam/Blizzard, Mew can come in on a Recover or Amnesia, set up with Swords Dance and attack from there.

    Also, note how Tauros is on every team in the OU cartridge metagame. That does not mean that the metagame is bad.
     
  4. Lamperi

    Lamperi I see what you did there

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    ok done from wiki, but didn't add BL.
     
  5. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    Any reason besides being named BL?

    Also, thanks!
     
  6. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Active Member

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    Tiers depend on wrap. If allowed, Cloyster, Dragonite and Victreebel are all OU worthy.

    Articuno doesn't have OU usage though, nor OU potential. If he is OU, Cloyster, Hypno, Victreebell and Venusaur should also be OU.
    Jolteon/Persian are also pretty debatable, but OU is already small anyway.

    In Ubers there is Mewtwo, then there is Mew and explosions, and then there is everything else. Everything else either stalls or sucks, with the possible exception of Tauros.

    There are a lot of BL stuff that could be moved down to UU, without centralising the UU meta, just making it slightly different: Clefable, Dodrio, Dugtrio, Mr.Mime and Nidoqueen. But anyway, the listed UU tier has always been considered the standard with the exception of Sandslash and Charizard (which aren't broken in UU). I personally like the impact wrapless Tentacruel would make in the UU meta though.

    And with wrap allowed, Arbok and Dragonair are definitely UU.
     
  7. Lamperi

    Lamperi I see what you did there

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    Didn't add because wanted tiers to be coherent across gens... so yes, because it's named BL >_>
     
  8. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    Lamperi, then I suggest renaming the BL tier to UU, and the UU tier to LU. Problem solved! ;)
     
  9. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    @isa there was no LU until gen 5 so that doesn't work, also really almost no one formally plays any ban list tier not named Ubars anyway.
     
  10. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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  11. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

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    It would be pretty easy to just add all the tiers and rename them UU/LU/NU, so I don't see why not. We already have a crapload of ties which get no play on the server and its clearly not bothering anyone. Not to mention, these are 'standard' tiers, unlike say... DW Clear Skies. It'll be weird not having a "BL" though - but it does give you guys a chance to rework OU and not have stuff in there just for the sake of keeping it out of UU (currently BL).

    That made sense in my head, I hope it made sense to others.
     
  12. Lamperi

    Lamperi I see what you did there

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    I rather add it was BL than LU
     
  13. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Active Member

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    Why renaming anything? This is RBY: LU doesn't exist (and there is no need to make it), and BL is just the ban tier of UU.

    The most inportant thing though, is that these are RBY tiers, not STADIUM tiers.
     
  14. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

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    Well, if BL is a playable tier (which from Isa-'s post I gathered it was, but I could be wrong), and we want to keep consistency across generations, the easy solution seems to be to rename them.
     
  15. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Active Member

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    Everything is playable in the sense that it can be played though (as long as there are more than 5 pokes available), but being a better or a worse meta is always subjective.

    I think it's quite late for renaming anything related to old gens but whatever. The most reasonable thing would've probably been using the old names for the new gens.
     
  16. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Well, BL ''tiers'' aren't playable since they lack pokemon to kind of balance out their own broken state in 4th and 5th gen, so that's really out of the question. NU didn't even exist back in the days when RBY was actually the current generation either, so I don't see why you'd oppose a LU tier.
     
  17. Blitzamirin

    Blitzamirin Waluigi! Number one!

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    I don't mind the possibility of an LU tier, considering my recent shock after seeing BL (never played UU, only OU).

    Or, are we going Smogon's way and implement BL in UU? I cannot see that happening >_<
     
  18. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    That would essentially mean that you remove the current UU tier in favor of the BL one, which makes no sense.

    The BL tier in RBY is entirely playable and is probably one of the more diverse tiers in terms of viable Pokémon - I don't think there's any Pokémon dominating the BL metagame like Mewtwo dominates Ubers, Tauros dominates OU, and Electabuzz "dominates" UU (he's put on every team).
     
  19. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Active Member

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    BL didn't exist due to being a playable tier or not, though. It existed because there were some pokemons without OU usage but, at the same time, too good for UU (which means that BL isn't determined by performance in OU). Thus, BL wasn't made to be played or to be balanced in the first place; it's just a BAN tier (like Ubers) whose aim is to make another tier (UU in BL's case) more balanced. The fact that people has started playing it recently is another story.

    Saying that it's playable/balanced or it's not is not a valid argument imo. The question is... is it necessary? Not really. But is it necessary to remove it? Nope.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2012
  20. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    You do realize NU didn't really exist among competitive communities until ADV was the main generation, right? You've basically been contradicting yourself by making a NU tier while rejecting the idea of a LU tier being established.

    That being said, can we just make the BL tier an actual tier on PO for RBY? This ''argument'' is just going to go around in circles forever, and there's no real reason not to. It'll obviously have a bigger player base(due to RBY2k10 people) than, say, GBU tiers or GSC UU.
     
  21. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Active Member

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    I never made the NU tier myself, and I didn't want it either.

    But wait, was your post for me, or for Isa?
     
  22. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Well it was meant to be more of a sweeping statement rather than for one person, but it was directed at Isa since BL was never a tier at all in any generation. The logic for making a LU tier to accommodate the BL list is at least there and solid because it exists as a full fledged tier now.

    There's still no reason not to add it, as Ubers is something people play because it tends to have some kind of variety, at least in later generations(as in not centered around taking out Mewtwo to make your life easier). Considering this is basically UU Ubers...yeah.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2012
  23. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    Bumping this with a request - could we get Little Cup (LC) added, please? Standard LC rules apply, and there's no banlist or Uber tier.
     
  24. Blitzamirin

    Blitzamirin Waluigi! Number one!

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    I wonder if Ponyta will become LC Ubers (bad movepool, but good stats). Same with Abra. Ghastly might be staple :x
     
  25. Lamperi

    Lamperi I see what you did there

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    If anyone can arse to make a list of pokemon I'll add it >_>
     
  26. T-Dogg

    T-Dogg Member

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  27. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    I don't know if any other communities have ever played RBY LC, and if they have, if they've played anything but LC OU. As far as I know, we've never played LC BL or LC UU on 2K10. What I'm saying is that the tiers aren't the most important thing.

    And Diglett > All. Ponyta and Abra are both great but Diglett is essentially a staple on all teams striving to be competitive.
     
  28. Lamperi

    Lamperi I see what you did there

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    the list is missing at least Oddish. If you spot anything else tell me
     
  29. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    Bulbasaur
    Charmander
    Squirtle
    Caterpie
    Weedle
    Pidgey
    Rattata
    Spearow
    Ekans
    Pikachu
    Sandshrew
    Nidoran F
    Nidoran M
    Clefairy
    Vulpix
    Jigglypuff
    Zubat
    Oddish
    Paras
    Venonat
    Diglett
    Meowth
    Psyduck
    Mankey
    Growlithe
    Poliwag
    Abra
    Machop
    Bellsprout
    Tentacool
    Geodude
    Ponyta
    Slowpoke
    Magnemite
    Doduo
    Seel
    Grimer
    Shellder
    Gastly
    Drowzee
    Krabby
    Voltorb
    Exeggcute
    Cubone
    Koffing
    Rhyhorn
    Horsea
    Goldeen
    Staryu
    Magikarp
    Eevee
    Omanyte
    Kabuto
    Dratini
    ---

    There you are.
     
  30. Lamperi

    Lamperi I see what you did there

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    Well the tier was implemented with some nice bugs on the server ( I accidentally claused Stadium non-LC pokes to be banned in every tier ).

    It's Wifi tier like other Stadium tiers, and banned moves include OHKOs and fixed damage moves. If you want me to prevent level up moves it requires some magic.
     
  31. Lutra

    Lutra All Gen Battler/Scripter

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    I think you've made a mistake, it's not called Wifi Clause on PO, it's called Wifi Battle. We certainly haven't been choosing our leads for the past couple of months lol
     
  32. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    So wait, does this have tradebacks since breeding doesn't happen in RBY/Stadium?
     
  33. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    So here's a question: how does this exist without tradebacks?

    edit: Ninjas are everywhere apparently.
     
  34. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    It's a simulator only-metagame. We've never played it with tradebacks.

    The only banned moves except OHKO ones are Sonicboom and Dragon Rage.

    Thanks, Lamperi! :D
     
  35. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Ah, ok then. Seems interesting enough.
     
  36. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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  37. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Why are we making new RBY metagames when the playerbase consists of 5 people?
     
  38. Lamperi

    Lamperi I see what you did there

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    Because extra tiers do not do anything bad.
     
  39. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    They clutter up the tier list?

    Why not just add any tier any person ever suggests? I think we need to actually get good tier ideas, especially ones that may have a future playerbase that consists of more than 5 players. We already have like 30 some non-played tiers that just clutter things up in the stats page, the server tier list, and scripts.

    This is especially true since RBY NU and LC never existed and thus will likely need metagame adjustments, which will likely need some form of balancing via suspecting.
     
  40. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Active Member

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    There is no need to bother about balancing RBY LC or NU imo. There is no need to ban everything that doesn't feel right or balanced enough in a tier.

    The main difference is that the tiers you are talking about are tiers that some people have come up with, which could lead to a ridiculous number of tiers if everybody makes his own, while RBY NU/LC follow the standard tiering "scheme" of the new gens moved to the old gens.