Ok gonna say this at the start so people actually read it: Only post threats that are viable in the GSC OU (or UU if a UU threat list is made, if so you will obviously have to specify that it is UU you're posting for). If you want to post you must justify what you post. High Threat: [secret] Charizard - Bellyzard is a huge problem if allowed to set up while Fire Blast allows it to tear through Skarm and other physical walls Cloyster - Higher defence than Skarmory but a very low special defence and a poor typing. Spikes and decent special attacking coverage in Ice Beam and Surf STAB. Explosion is ever present to take down your special walls. Exeggutor - Sleep Power and Stun Spore to cripple threats. Often uses Explosion for the surprise kill on a Snorlax or other unsuspecting wall. Gengar - Can use Destinybond, Explosion or Perish Song in order to kill off or force out big threats such as Lax. This unpredictability between the 3 can make it hard to beat without losing a Pokémon. It can also pack Hypnosis for (somewhat unreliably) crippling switch-ins. Marowak - Can be very threatening if it is passed some speed form a Jolteon or another passer. Can Swords Dance its attack to 1000 (the highest possible in GSC before it ticks over) making it one of the strongest physical attackers in GSC with STAB EQ. Raikou - Spreads paralysis and shuffles with roar. Can utilise Reflect to make effective on both sides of the defensive spectrum. Skarmory - Walls most physical attackers, phases with Whirlwind. Can rest off damage. Drill Peck can do some damage to things like Machamp or Heracross. Can run Toxic to cripple things like Exeggutor that don't commonly rest. Can use thief to steal leftovers from something thus taking off some recovery. Snorlax - Everyone knows your standard Curselax set with Curse, Body Slam, Rest and and a wild-card move. Can Belly Drum for immediate threat. Selfdestruct can leave a nasty dent in just about anything that isn't a ghost or Steelix, while lovely kills can be used to put potential counters to sleep. Mix can be used to threaten Skarmory with some damage. Mix and Selfdestruct can be a decent offensive threat. Steelix - Late-game Spikes shuffling with Roar and the threat of explosion can make it hard to get a counter/check in on it. Suicune - Physical wall. Takes most physical attacks well. Roar can phase very effectively. Tyranitar - Has a diverse movepool and decently rounded stats everywhere making it a useful tool to fill in multiple roles. Large diverse movepool, access to Roar, Curse and a lot of attacking options. Vaporeon - Growth boosts its special attack allowing it to sweep. Has well rounded defences and a high HP stat making it relatively hard to kill off. Zapdos - Roar can be seen. Sleep-talking can allow it to tank quite effectively seeing as rest will still activate if Zapdos is asleep. Blocked by Exeggutor depending on the set.[/secret] Medium Threat: [secret]Alakazam - High speed. Outlandish special attack and STAB Psychic. Good coverage in elemental punches. Can often miss the kill on a lot of popular Pokémon such as Exeggutor or Zapdos. Can utilise Counter but it often lacks the defence to do so. Can spread paralysis with a fast T-Wave. Blissey - Reasonably reliable special wall, often paired with Skarmory to form the famous "Skarmbliss" requiring good prediction to beat. Dragonite - High attacking stats and a very good movepool. Can be hard to predict. Donphan - Good spinner, Powerful EQ hurts anything that doesn't resist it. Can Curse and is one of the few physical attackers able to consistently take on Steelix. Espeon - 130 Spatk Psychic makes for a powerful hit. Can Baton Pass off to help with counters. Foretress - Spikes and Spin. High physical defence. Earthquake makes it able to actually attack. Can curse. Low special defence. Heracross - Curse and Megahorn are a threatening combo. Able to rip through teams that lack Skarmory (Steelix is taken care of by EQ) Houndoom - Can make use of Sunny-beam for good coverage with Fire Blast. Pursuit can 'trap' Gengar and Espeon well. Counter can be a game-changing surprise. Jolteon - Can pass subs to other Pokémon as well as Agility boosts in some cases. Growth passing isn't very common but it's possible. Jynx - (will do later once legality issues are confirmed.) Machamp - High attack, decent coverage in Rock Slide and Cross Chop. Rest-talk can be threatening. Can also Curse with mono attack Rock Slide. Meganium - Has access to dual screens as well as decent defences and Leech seed. Miltank - Heal Bell heals team mates of status. Milk Drink for recovery. Body Slam spreads paralysis. Can Growl to lower attack or even Psych-Up to turn Snorlax's or another Curser's boosts against it. Misdreavus - Perish traps can take out Snorlax and other Cursing Pokémon with relative ease. Muk - Curser. High HP and Special defence. Decent attack. Nidoking - Very good coverage. Good attacking stats and defences that aren't horrible. Quagsire - Another curse user. Good defences. Only really fears grass attacks. Rhydon - High defence, STAB EQ and Rock Slide as well as Roar. Starmie - Spinner, high speed and quite a bit of Special Attack. Walled completely by Snorlax. Tbolt, Surf and Psychic are to watch for. Recover for an instant 50% boost to HP. Tentacruel - Swords dance as well as Hydro Pump being able to deal good damage to physical walls. Umbreon - Baton Pass can make switching into counters hard. Can trap physical attackers and Charm them to stop them setting up. Toxic and Bite hit all commonly used non-steel Pokémon, (bite is for Gengar)[/secret] Low Threat: [secret]Clefable - Access to Belly Drum and a form of instant recovery and good defences. Often outclassed by Snorlax. Kangaskhan - Sub, Curse and Roar can cause problems for unprepared teams. Kingdra - Poor movepool but decent stats all round. Often runs Dragonbreath to spread paralysis along with Surf and Rest-Talk. Moltres - Decent special attack and STAB Fire Blast, Whirlwind can phase mon hoping to set-up. Porygon 2 - Decent special attack. Good coverage in Boltbeam. Ursaring - High attack and pretty good coverage in powerful normal stab and Earthquake.[/secret] Rough Ranked list from Borat: [secret]1. Snorlax 2. Zapdos 3. Raikou 4. Exeggutor 5. Skarmory 6. Suicune 7. Gengar 8. Tyranitar 9. Cloyster 10. Vaporeon 11. Steelix 12. Forretress 13. Miltank 14. Starmie 15. Machamp 16. Nidoking 17. Marowak 18. Blissey 19. Jolteon 20. Espeon 21. Heracross 22. Misdreavus 23. Umbreon 24. Charizard 25. Quagsire 26. Rhydon 27. Dragonite 28. Muk 29. Tentacruel[/secret] See the wiki page for the list with pretty graphics and base stats: http://wiki.pokemon-online.eu/view/2nd_Gen_OU_Threat_List
Yeah, you should probably let the old pros/vets who still know the metagame do this kind of thing, since otherwise you're just going to get yelled at a lot lol.
Give me a break. It's past 12 and I rushed this. I moved Vappy to high offensive. I don't see any other issues of offensive to defensive. Maybe a few med/high threat issues or a few missed out mon. I can just change that as its told.
Raikou - Roar, Calm Mind. Can be a potent force. Needs to be forced out before it can set up more than one CM. What? Also zapdos is offensive threat, while raikou is a defensive threat. I don't think miltank is a medium defensive threat... Wheres umbreon? Machamp and Marowak medium offensive threat?
Marowak is powerful but it's pretty unreliable so I stuck it in Med. I did Raikou wrong. It's meant to be It can Roar, Rest, reflect etc and so on. Sorry I messed up and was thinking adv. My bad. I'm fixing all of that shit. Edit: Not posting again or it seems spammy. Ok, I'll take your word for it, M Dragon. It'll go in High then. I was speaking from my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience. Edit 2: What do you mean by "I don't think miltank is a medium defensive threat.."
Snorlax is the best defensive pokemon in the game. Almost every good pokemon in GSC is dual-roled. Just food for thought. There are very very few one-dimensional pokemon in use.
Yeah that was one of my concerns when categorising. The lines between offensive and defensive are mostly blurred. I'll just leave it in 2 categories of high and medium. It's too hard to distinguish in too many cases.
Let's just use the threat list Borat took the time to post in the other thread as our starting point, and go from there. There's a lot of issues with this one (most glaringly, imo, Starmie != offense), and it doesn't even seem done, either.
It's probably a good idea to get the list down... before going into descriptions. Skarmory doesn't spikes. And I still don't think blissey is worthy of being a top threat, even if it's "beginners" play. Assuming people read this, it should include most of the mixed sweepers, which is really all you need to knock blissey down a notch. Never mind the fact that it struggles to special wall vs the "true" special attackers (growtheons) in the first place. Also, Starmie blows. It's only spinning, and if you've mastered spikes shuffling, you don't need this list. That said, all the main mixed sweepers go to top imo. And I'd do two separate lists at least for offensive and defensive. And.... I might just wait see what M Dragon has written up first. EDIT: Also I think even the shitty players can figure out that having a strong STAB usually isn't enough to make anything a threat. Offensive threats gist: mixed sweepers, stat uppers (agi pass, curse, SD, drum, growth), explosion, zapdos, spikes shuffling. Every other attack/pokemon is literally there for shits and giggles, usually to make sure some 5 HP pokemon doesn't switch in and rest on you. Wow, the last statement really hit home. I like that.
I won't remove the descriptions now because a decent number are probably correct. If you care to sort them by offensive/defensive then be my guest (as you have done.). People just seem to have too many different opinions because it's such a fine line. It's easier as to avoid argument. Anyway. If you want to get this one deleted and make your own I'll have no complaints. I'm going to bed now. It's 1:30am good night
I really don't think that. It's pretty calm up here. If there were differing opinions, it's the sign of an unstable meta, evolving if you will. That would be a good thing tbh. But truth is, most every one of the better players can agree on just about everything in this gen. More so than even the "dead" RBY. EDIT: My main problem with the description is that they sound broken. It sounds like you don't even believe what you wrote. And that could be partially true, since this isn't a list you particularly agree with. If I wanted to nitpick, Charizard always packs FB. Your description seems to imply it doesn't. Cloyster's main threats are spikes + explosion. Serves as temp defensive stop. Exeggutor's main threat is explosion + status. Serves as temp defensive stop. Gengar's main threat is unpredictability, between dbond, psong, and explosion. Marowak's 999 EQ is hardly the "strongest possible attacker" no matter how you look at it. And it's one of his main problems. It doesn't OHKO Cloyster/Cune. Raikou's main threat is para shuffling. It's also a top 3 special wall (if I wanted to be biased, it's top 2 because blissey sucks). Snorlax description neglects SD, mix, and SD/mix variants. Also fails to mention LK and other plethora of options. Skarm should focus on 4th attack and merits of thief, curse, toxic, and sand attack. Steelix's main threat is either explosion or spikes shuffling lategame. It's weak to EQ, one of the most common physical attacks, so it's very suseptible to physical attacks tbh. It can't hang toe to toe with the likes of Rhydon at all. Suicune is nothing like raikou. It's a general wall, not a shuffler per say. Raikou is an offensive phazer, cune is a defensive phazer. Ttar is just a generic mixed attacker tbh. A pretty poor one at that. Or a curser... but again, a poor one at that. Generally people tend to use him as a swiss army knife, filling in multiple roles (phazer, physical wall, etc). I think pursuit is his best attack. Vaporeon shouldn't be played without growth. Zapdos is not completely walled by Snorlax at all. In fact, Zapdos has probably more Snorlax kills than any other pokemon for me. Why? Because people are actually WILLING to switch in Snorlax to Zapdos, which makes kills possible. Zapdos isn't exactly doing pitiful damage. You'll rarely see Machamps kill lax (bar CHing a +5 curselax or some stupid event like that). I don't want this deleted per say, but I do want less guess work and more knowing going into it. I'm fully willing to help you out. Also: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65122 Scroll down to post 2, 3, and 4. I think I outline some stuff. It's pretty old [and drunk], but requires less editing than the original post.
I honestly had been thinking of making up a threat list that categorized things by type of threat (e.g. mixed, physical, special, exploder). What says people to this kind of categorization? The thing that kept me from doing a list like that was the fact that you could put some sets in several categories, not to mention that I had a big debate as to whether instant vs. setup subdivisions of each threat type were necessary. I'm not sure if it'd really help new players with GSC. "Chunking" information like that is generally helpful, but part of my problem is I really just don't think of things in these categories until after the fact where I already know all the threats independently.
Problem is how descriptive you get with the categories. You can literally break every OU down to its own category, and it'd honestly be vastly different from everything else.
Sorry. I changed it to one of the most powerful physical attackers, I know that's right no matter how you look at it. I'm changing what you suggested atm.
Let's work on this where everyone can contribute directly, and it can be useful. I have set up a page on the wiki from the entries in the OP, if some GSC players could work on it it'd be brilliant.
Updated a bunch of stuff on both the wiki page and the thread. Had to go out so it took a while. Used Borat's Smogon thread for most of it. I think it's coming together ok now. Sorry for my earlier sucking. Thought about something. Tauros. Medium or Low (assuming it's not high) I've seen it a reasonable amount.
Tauros shouldn't be seen at all in OU, let alone be listed as something in particular to prepare for.
At least a mention to Scizor and Smeargle (BPers, similar to jolteon) should be added in medium threats
I just realized I made something like this before... 1. Snorlax 2. Zapdos 3. Raikou 4. Exeggutor 5. Skarmory 6. Suicune 7. Gengar 8. Tyranitar 9. Cloyster 10. Vaporeon 11. Steelix 12. Forretress 13. Miltank 14. Starmie 15. Machamp 16. Nidoking 17. Marowak 18. Blissey 19. Jolteon 20. Espeon 21. Heracross 22. Misdreavus 23. Umbreon 24. Charizard 25. Quagsire 26. Rhydon 27. Dragonite 28. Muk 29. Tentacruel Msc list: Kangaskhan Jynx Scizor Smeargle Clefable Porygon2 Meganium Houndoom Alakazam Ursaring But it's more geared towards better players. Things get really crowded between the bottom half of the list... e.g. Nido isn't that much better than dnite. But better nonetheless.
As I told you, it's very difficult saying that a pokemon is better than another in GSC (other than lax > zapdos and raikou and maybe egg > the rest). For example, I could discuss how Marowak should be higher than Forretress, for example. I think that the high threat / medium threat / low threat division is much better. That list could be used as a reference though
Some things are arguable (Nidoking vs Machamp for example), but Forretress being better than Marowak on the other hand is not.
Bumping old post. This is to address Jorgen's second post here ("A couple of points"): http://wiki.pokemon-online.eu/view/Talk:2nd_Gen_OU_Threat_List I'll mostly address the upper/mid tiers, since the bottom tier doesn't seem worthy of my thought process. Tyranitar is a jack of all trades pokemon that is all too common, but at the same time NOT game breaking. If you follow basketball, he's like Lamar Odom. If it breaks games through cursing, the opponent is pretty bad. And... Rhydon/something else probably could've done the same. If it breaks it through mixed sweeping, then again, Machamp or something else probably could've done the same. Going by the definition listed, the only way ttar is game breaking is because of Pursuit. Is Pursuit alone Marowak needs an asterisk or something. It's really not at all game breaking without "something" (jolteon/smeargle/the odd scizor). It "could" work on its own, but on its own it's no different from 3 attack champ, etc. Also Forretress needs a bump because Cloyster's brokenness primarily comes from Spikes, not Exploision. Anyway, this brings me to my next point. Stuff like Charizard, Quagsire, Espeon, those are pretty "game-breaking" pokemon. While not as consistent as the likes of Tyranitar, which I agree are on a higher tier, do actually win games or break games open. Maybe I'm not understanding threat list, but I see it as the pokemon with the most potential to decide a game, rather than a flat out ranking thing. Also, how about incorporating combos instead of individual pokemon? e.g. skarmbliss, joltwak, jolt/smeargle lax, etc. EDIT: To clarify, I'm not complaining, I'm merely questioning the exact direction you're trying to take this thing. Maybe I'm just not understanding these terms and am a nitpicking ass.
Yeah, that definition is pretty flawed. I just threw it out there to try and make it a bit more objective by providing SOME criteria (however ill-defined themselves) by which we'd make these decisions. I was hoping for this kind of discussion, because really, I just kinda pulled that outta my ass. The main purpose, I think, is to list what's most important to prepare for based on 1) how common something is and 2) how effective it is at what it can do. This is where defensive "threats" come in; they don't really break games open, but if you don't think about how you can break or work around them, then you most certainly aren't going to break a game yourself (barring a good bit of luck). So it's not so much what's most game-breaking, but what's skewing the landscape of the metagame. I see it as something that goes in more depth than a typical tier list (which is mostly just to delineate what's allowed in different tier metagames), something that actually explains the degree to which each OU mon affects how you should strategize both on offense and on defense.